Yahoo has picked up the MSU Basketball rape story
The more exposure, the better. These victims need to be heard and those who repeatedly failed the victims need to be held responsible.
Link: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/michigan-state-basketball-rape-accuser-comes-forward-040326702.html
April 12th, 2019 at 11:59 AM ^
The statement "you're swimming with some big fish" is just outrageous on its face as well as a more cowardly way of saying "swimming with sharks" because that would be a more overt threat.
Translation: They win us basketball games, and you're just a girl.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
I would love it if State fans rioted and set fires over stuff like this, instead of say, losing in the Final 4.
That would require thinking of women as humans, though.
Eh, more just that it requires thinking, period. They're more of a reactive bunch.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:06 PM ^
I would love to be wrong about this, but I just don't see her winning her case. I think it is going to be extremely difficult to show the causal link between what allegedly happened to her and the MSU culture generally.
I hope for her sake she makes it to discovery, because I am pretty sure MSU has a mandatory records keeping policy for a number of years. If the notes of her sessions come out, it will be very difficult for MSU to defend their actions. If the notes were deleted, the judge will rake administrators for that as well, if the deletion was against policy.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:31 PM ^
You must be completely unfamiliar with MSU.
The state of Michigan has had two different AGs try without success to get MSU paperwork in CRIMINAL investigations.
Theres no way in hell MSU is giving up anything in a civil case.
Mark Hollis approves of this comment. If he ever comes out from under the rock he is hiding under.
He spends his summers on Lake Charlevoix. So there you go
Recent Izzo press conference he was talking about Winston and Ward(?) should take a look at going pro.
No worry at all at the university level I don't believe.
When I saw this on the news last night, I was wondering how they could come up with enough evidence after all of this time has passed in order to have a successful lawsuit. This will be another rape they can pretend never happened.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:07 PM ^
This young woman should be commended for coming forward. Unfortunately nothing will happen to the basketball program or Izzo. He is beyond desperate for that second title. Izzo could kill someone in front of the Peanut Barrel during happy hour and nothing would happen.
After reading the asinine comments about this young lady and this overall situation on the RCMB - I have never been prouder to have attended U of M, and cannot believe how much more intelligence and class the posters on Mgoblog have when addressing these types of issues.
I would say that 50%+ of the posters on the RCMB are missing critical portions of human DNA. And this is a conservative estimate.
Yeah, I noticed in our local paper and some of the Detroit area papers that the stories about the spartans continued long after they were bounced from the tournament. They made the final four for the first time in years, then lost. Big deal. Yet the flattering stories on Izzo and his crew continued on day after day after day. He is never called out for what is going on there.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:07 PM ^
Good! It's about time.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:10 PM ^
Time for Tom to haul out the teal ribbons again and play the victim.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:13 PM ^
https://twitter.com/DavidHarns/status/1116513954526892032
This thread does a good job of summarizing what went wrong (multiple failures) in this case and presumably many others. David Harns is an MSU writer but he has done a good job covering all of these cases. The MSU counseling office was set up very poorly and severely underfunded, so the counselor who spoke to the victim was likely an intern or volunteer, which is not acceptable. This counselor was supposed to refer the victim to the sexual assault program (SAP), which had much more qualified staff, although still too few. However, the counselor made the "big fish" remarks and didn't send her to the SAP. Even if the counselor had done his/her job, the SAP likely would have taken a long time to complete her case as it is severely understaffed. The counseling program was set up to fail from the beginning, and some changes have been made and hopefully will continue to be made.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:19 PM ^
Excuses. At my job as a teacher I am severely understaffed too, but when I see a child that is being potentially abused at home it is my obligation to contact CPS and my administration and contact the proper authorities.
Understaffed or not this is something that needs immediate attention to. I am not buying this understaffed underfunded BS. That is just another excuse.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:24 PM ^
I'm not making excuses for anyone. The counselor who spoke with the victim failed massively. Part of the problem is that the "first level" of counseling did not have counselors who were qualified to handle this sort of case, and the administration that set up the counseling services so poorly needs to be held accountable. I never said there wasn't a problem or that this didn't need immediate attention. It's a huge problem and needed attention a long time ago.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:36 PM ^
Well if you claim that the "first level" of counseling did not have counselors qualified for this situation then I guess MSU has hired people dumber than I thought.
My wife is a recess aid and has not graduated from college (she is the greatest woman in the world though) and even though she is not qualified to work as a counselor she would be able to spot abuse and report it to the proper authorities. Spartans will...........hire dumb people????
But you are, really. This is a deeply systemic issue at MSU, and has been for a long time. It goes way beyond this particular case. I believe that you all understand this deep down, but seek any means possible to twist the narrative to something almost benign. Stop doing that.
Agree 100% Boner.
"Understaffed" and "underfunded" are, when used in this manner, corporate terms for "we hired stupid and/or lazy people and would like to cover our asses forthwith."
As you said, understaffed or not, you have to call CPS if you suspect abuse. Only the ignorant and/or lazy think "that's not my job" and don't get involved.
That wasn't meant to be an excuse, and I apologize if it came across as such. It's not an excuse, it's one of the major failures on the part of the university. The whole program was set up poorly and did not have adequate resources. As a result, the sexual assault program (which actually had qualified counselors) did not have enough counselors which resulted in long delays, and to even get to the program the victim had to go through the initial counselor (the "big fish" person) who was not properly trained or qualified and should not have been in that role in the first place. This is a massive, inexcusable failure by the administration, and there are probably more people who should lose their jobs over it in addition to those who have already.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:21 PM ^
sincere question: you mentioned in another post how your spartan buddies for a little while had taken down their spartan spirit stuff from facebook, etc, but that only lasted a few months. where are you on the realm of regaining/maintaining your fanhood? i ask for two reasons: first, your other responses show you to be a thoughtful person, and secondly, heaven forbid that quarter century of looking the other way (or worse) ever happen at michigan, but i would hope that my response to U of M would be along the lines of 'you're dead to me', and that i'd mean it.
i don't mean to be provocative, and i would add that i have a few spartan friends who are great guys, and candidly, i have avoided the subject with them. i probably should hit them up about it, but hey, you're here so i'll ask.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:40 PM ^
Like XM I avoid this discussion with Spartan friends, since, well, it just makes the conversation turn hostile, along the lines of "do you think your precious U of M is any different?" No where for that conversation to go.
OTOH we have a family friend who graduated from Univ. of Kentucky who boycotts watching any of their FB or BB games.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:49 PM ^
Funny you bring up Kentucky. I had a parent from my school who went there and was a tutor for the basketball team a decade ago. He said how the players were elgible to play is still a mystery to him.
Funny you say that your buddies automatically comment that we're not different. One of my best buddies back in MI is a sparty, because he couldn't get in to M biz school, and now both his kids go to state. he's become a diehard spartan and loves their coaches, has respect for Beilein, hates Harbaugh. He was being typical spartan and texting me after they beat us in basketball so I finally responded with the $500M and counting and listed all the B-ball players who have been accused of sexual assault. His immediate response...."Oh, you think the same thing doesn't happen at M? You know it does. "
I heard the same shit from sparty family members when they brought up the Nassar scandal. This stuff happens everywhere. UM had some guy do bad stuff too, etc. Total denial of responsibility.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:49 PM ^
The Facebook reference I think was a different poster on here. As for me, I'm quite embarrassed not only by the events that took place but also by the university's handling of it. Lou Anna Simon was responsible for creating the environment that allowed these events to happen, and frankly sounded like she didn't care about them. Engler came in and handled the situation about as well as someone using a lighter to put out a fire. I'm glad they're gone, and Hollis too for his handling of things, and there are probably more heads that need to roll in the administration. In this case, assuming the allegations are true, heads definitely need to roll in the counseling office. The fact that this case never made it to the police, Title IX office, or even the athletic department is unacceptable. And if it comes out that Izzo has interfered in any way with investigations, he needs to go. Simon was the president when I graduated, and her signature is on my diploma, and I will likely request a new copy of diploma whenever the university gets a competent president so I can have that president's signature instead.
As for my rooting interests, I pretty much root for the players unless it comes out that they did something bad, and I don't think that will ever change. During this last Final Four run, there was all the talk about Izzo going for his second championship, but I didn't really care to be honest. I was happiest for McQuaid and Goins, who seem like two stand-up guys who work their asses off, and I was happy to see them rewarded. I've personally met Goins who was super nice, and I was thrilled that he was the one to hit the 3 to beat Duke.
okay, i guess. i see how you could root for some of the individual kids that seem to be good eggs. thank you for your measured response. i think that i'd be out on my fanhood completely. no more football tix, not wearing michigan gear (unless mucking out stalls), not watching or paying much attention to michigan sports. i just don't think that i could overcome that one on any level until/unless the house was totally cleared out.
i would add that i don't think there is any way to avoid the conclusion that both izzo and dantonio knew lots of things were going wrong. lots. see: bullough family as exhibit 1, for instance. coach might not know all the details, but they knew plenty enough to be accountable. regardless, it was on their respective watches, so to speak, they should go down with the ship. pretty sure i'd lead the 'can harbaugh!' legion if the tables were turned.
Well said. Couldn't agree more.
In addition to this, I find it hard to accept that a reasonable, thinking person can conclude that this case is to be blamed on the counseling office. It's the institution, and the culture that they have developed over recent decades. Insular, arrogant, self preservation. Misrepresent things in the media as much as possible. Throw out smoke screens like Adrian Payne with that little girl. It's just fucked up, top to bottom.
I still can't believe this hasn't become a much bigger story, years ago. Friendly local media, and the above shenanigans I guess?
The track record of Izzo bringing in players who commit or allegedly commit very serious crimes (like assault) is now clear and should be indefensible by any rational Spartan fan/supporter. There have been way too many of them in his tenure, and the problem has been compounded greatly by the protecting culture of the administration at MSU. I'm appalled and dumbfounded by the amount of adulation Izzo gets despite this ignored dark side of his program.
It is truly baffling how much Spartan fans rationalize this. How many rapes and gang rapes have to take place by Spartan basketball players while they are still in school before Tom Izzo gets any blame at all? There is enough smoke around the program that is impossible the head coach doesn’t know a thing and yet, here we are, giving Tom a free pass after three of his star players are drugging and raping a woman
Let’s not forget the poor girl who was gang raped by football players. She ended up taking her own life. Her situation was treated similarly by MSU authorities. My hatred for that shithole could not be greater.
April 12th, 2019 at 11:05 PM ^
The answer to that question is zero. But you knew that....
The worst part is really the UM grad Ingham County prosecutor who made it all go away for years and years.
Stuart Dunnings degree from UM law school has nothing to do with him being a POS. When the whole center of your universe is MSU athletics, you do what's best to keep your job. Alot of the assaults never made it to his office. They were stonewalled on campus. As an elected official, he kept those in power happy. ( MSU athletics Dept. )
You mean Walton, right? Or Appling? Or Payne? Or Valentine? Mateen? Maybe Forbes? Whatever that walk on's name was that was dismissed last year?
April 12th, 2019 at 11:08 PM ^
Could you link the court documents from their trials? I'd be interested in reading them .
Thanks for being rational!
Simon made a huge mistake in 2009 when she didn’t fire Dantonio and his entire staff after several of his players left the football banquet and went to a dorm and assaulted several people. By not firing Dantonio and booting everyone of those players out of school she set a precedent that winning is more important than ethics. It carries on still, almost ten years later.
That was, I think, a key event. But I'm not sure that over ten years plus I have ever seen an MSU official just express incredible anger over these blows to the school and its rep and/or say how miserable they feel. There's always first been a lot of equivocation and belated, half-hearted apology. Someone remind me of an incident where someone seemed genuine in their remorse? Because, c'mon, that's at least three assaults of women by the basketball team, a ton of crazy by the football team. . . and the biggest serial rape case in U.S. history. The scale and scope are astounding.
April 12th, 2019 at 10:15 PM ^
MSU has a history of trying to shunt off responsibility for persistent culture issues on lower-level individuals as a means to escape culpability. And not for nothing, but that thread includes this gem:
While the initial counselor's warning about big fish was technically true, the SAP staff are more experienced in communicating info, giving informed consent about extra safety considerations for reporting athletes, alongside specific information about the resources available.
— David Harns (@DavidHarns) April 12, 2019
"extra safety precautions for reporting athletes" isn't a phrase that should ever matter in cases like this. The reason victims don't report cases of abuse by those with higher perceived "value" is because places like MSU give immense benefit of the doubt to guys who can run and jump better than you and me. And I'm not saying UM is perfect; like any big university, it's handled some situations poorly (Gibbons was weird for any number of reasons, but they still communicated it terribly), but this is, what, the 3rd or 4th series of basketball players seemingly credibly accused of sexually assaulting women on campus? That's a failure of the system from top to bottom, and the idea that NOW MSU is taking it seriously because they are paying out half a billion dollars shouldn't matter. Sexual assaults on college campuses have been a plague for decades, and places like MSU willfully stuck their heads in the sand instead of deal with it.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:15 PM ^
This story was also on the national news (ABC) yesterday evening.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:34 PM ^
I really don't understand how anyone can argue that Izzo doesn't bear some responsibility at this point. When there are zero repercussions from this type of behavior by his players, and you're now talking about 3 known separate occurrences, how can he continue to get a pass on this bullshit?
April 12th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
Because going to the Final Four 8 times is more important than his players raping women. That is why Engler was brought in and why you continue to see them circling the wagons.
April 12th, 2019 at 12:50 PM ^
Wait a second, I thought it was just solely ESPN that was on a witch-hunt?! The New York Times and Yahoo are covering it too?!
It's a conspiracy, I tell ya, a conspiracy. They're all out to get us. Get out your chips, guys, and mount them to your shoulders.
This story has "disappeared" from headlines at least once already possibly twice. The LSJ had no interest in pursuing this story when it happened and have had no interest in doing any digging of any kind.
They simply do not care.