so much for that
Why is Fernando Rodney our closer?
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:20 AM | 
Mike Hart was a 3-star.
Mike Hart was a 3-star.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 AM |
wow, great argument
wow, great argument
Chad Henne was a 5 star
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:22 AM |
Looks like you missed the
Looks like you missed the
Looks like you missed the point.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:25 AM |
No, the point
No, the point
is that great 3 stars are exceptions. So are guys drafted later than 1st rounders!
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:25 AM |
No, that's not the point.
No, that's not the point.
No, that's not the point.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:28 AM |
So the point
So the point
would be exactly what then?
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:30 AM |
The post below that you've
The post below that you've
The post below that you've conveniently ignored.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:23 AM |
You have no point to miss. If
You have no point to miss. If
You have no point to miss. If you do, you're clearly doing a horrendous job stating it, given that not a soul here seems to understand.
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:22 AM |
But seriously, so what?
But seriously, so what?
But seriously, so what? Rodney was undrafted and he's the Tigers' closer.
It's common knowledge the Tigers took a flyer on Zumaya because they intended him to be a closer. The only reason Zumaya went so late was because he had perceived durability issues due to his pitching motion, which have played out pretty much as expected.
Either way, neither him nor Perry are going to be closers.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:31 AM |
You keep telling us to face
You keep telling us to face
You keep telling us to face the facts, and yet you're the one ignoring them.
FACT: 25 out of 26
Deal with it.
And where do you get the impression that Perry's not going to be a closer? Maybe this is the case, I don't know, but it seems like you're just pulling it out of you know where using the same super evaluation skills that led you to state that the man who successfully closes 96% of his games is somehow not successfully closing. Do you have any actual evidence backing up this statement?
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:31 AM |
Explain exactly
Explain exactly
why Perry won't be a closer. You have done one thing. You've said he won't. Tell me WHY he won't be.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:34 AM |
The simple enough answer is
The simple enough answer is
The simple enough answer is that he has shown to be a mediocre pitcher in tight games. His ERA is no argument for him, either.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:37 AM |
He's a rookie with virtually
He's a rookie with virtually
He's a rookie with virtually no minor league experience. Dude, come on.
When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing. -- Bo Schembechler
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:43 AM |
"The simple answer is that he
"The simple answer is that he
"The simple answer is that he has shown to be a mediocre pitcher in tight games.
That is the exact opposite of the truth! His stats clearly indicate he's been BETTER in close games. Is that you, Senator Grassley?
EDIT: nevermind, thought we were still talking about Rodney.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:42 AM |
However
However
I'm unable to explain how Perry's "clutch" rating is also above that of the average MLB, albeit not by a whole lot (still considerably lower than Rodney's at this point). Please, stop comparing Perry to Zumaya. Perry was a 1st round draft choice for a reason. It is quite clear he has a much better idea than Zumaya as to how to actually pitch to batters. He's 22 and pops the glove in the upper 90's (average fastball 95.5 mph rated at .32 runs/100 above a standard pitcher. His change also appears plus. The slider has a negative run rating, mostly due to his early season struggles to command that pitch. If you'll notice, since Perry went to Toledo to fine tune his command, his WHIP is 1.07, directly attributed to a decrease in walks.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:47 AM |
If there's one thing that
If there's one thing that
If there's one thing that drives me nuts, it's people who use the "so-and-so was a first/second round draft pick reason" or "so-and-so was a 5-star recruit for a reason" argument, particularly in baseball where prospects seem to be harder to project than any other sport. Yeah, Perry was a first-round pick. So what? Inge was a second-round pick, and Bonderman was a first-round pick. One is a mediocre utility player, the other is a career .500 pitcher with a .430+ career ERA.
There's very little to indicate that Perry is going to ever be an adequate closer for the Tigers.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:50 AM |
out of all the things
out of all the things
I said about Perry, that is the ONE thing you're going to respond to?
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:11 AM |
You seem like the kind of guy
You seem like the kind of guy
You seem like the kind of guy who thinks that W/L record is the most important stat for a pitcher.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:16 AM |
I seem like that guy
I seem like that guy
despite the fact that I've hardly mentioned W/L at all? Did you ignore the material I've posted on things such as FIP, pitch value ratings, clutch ratings, ground ball/fly ball/line drive rates, ect???
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:29 AM |
You seem like a guy with no
You seem like a guy with no
You seem like a guy with no comprehension of the term "sample-size". 72 innings into his professional career, you've determined that he can't be a successful pitcher.
Sommy, you've generally been reasonable on this board, so I'm not negging any of your posts, but you're either drunk, or having a horrible day - you keep stating a belief, don't back it up with any convincing fact, shift your arugment when it's be refuted, and are attacking other posters. You're offline, which is good - maybe you need a break.
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:30 PM |
Ohh SNAP! Chitown just put
Ohh SNAP! Chitown just put
Ohh SNAP! Chitown just put your ass in timeout. BOOM, CHITOWNED!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:39 AM |
Even if we don't have a
Even if we don't have a
Even if we don't have a closer of the future, that's not the reason you created this thread and is irrelevant to your argument. You stated that Rodney shouldn't be the closer at this point, which, as previously shown by others, is not the case, as Rodney is, at the very least, an average closer.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:42 AM |
Moral victories abound.
The
Moral victories abound.
The
Moral victories abound.
The reason I created the thread is because Rodney makes me want to pull my hair out when he pitches. Yes, he's closing games, but not without significant trouble.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:45 AM |
And this in spite
And this in spite
of the evidence I showed you in my really long post (2:33 am) that Rodney actually DOES NOT have significant trouble in save situations.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:50 AM |
I'll give you that one.
I'll give you that one.
I'll give you that one. Despite his statistical success, he usually makes the game more interesting before getting the last out.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:58 AM |
Except that
Except that
in 8 of his 26 saves, Rodney did not allow a runner and in 19 of 26 he allowed 1 or less base runner. For comparison, Papelbon has had 9 saves where he did not allow a baserunner, and one of those was a 1 out save.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:09 AM |
Well, I can't argue with
Well, I can't argue with
Well, I can't argue with stats, but is there any way you can tell if there were runners in scoring position even in those games where he allowed only one baserunner? I tend to argee with Sommy that it seems like Rodney always makes the save more difficult than it should be and that is the only explanation that I can think of that is possible with the stats you've shown.
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:14 AM |
you could tell
you could tell
but i'd have to actually go in and look at the play by play for each game
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:00 AM |
Common knowledge to whom?
Common knowledge to whom?
Obviously not to the Tigers management.
Joel Zumaya's minor league stats - 2002-2005: 78 games pitched, 77 games started. It is crap like that further lets everyone know how ignorant you are on this topic.
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:03 AM |
Good Point
Good Point
I seem to remember, in the winter of 2006, the Tigers were trying to decide whether to use either Verlander or Zumaya as a back of the rotation starter for that season. Opted for Verlander and chose to convert Zumaya to a reliever.
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:04 AM |
Wow, that is a very good point
Wow, that is a very good point
I got so into my Rodney argument that I had completely forgotten that Zumaya started off as a starter.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 PM |
But seriously, so what?
But seriously, so what?
But seriously, so what? Rodney was undrafted and he's the Tigers' closer.
Only players from the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico can be drafted. Rodney is from the Dominican Republic.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:48 AM |
I mean...there are TONS of
I mean...there are TONS of
I mean...there are TONS of rookie relievers who spent little-to-no time in the minors who just go out there and are a rock from jump street....
Perry is a grand total of 41 major league IP.
let's reference some relevant numbers for perry vs. PAPELBON'S (who we'd all agree is a good closer, I think.) rookie years.
| IP | ERA | BB/9 | K/9 | WHIP | K/BB | |
| Perry | 41 | 3.70 | 5.2 | 8.7 | 1.45 | 1.67 |
| Papelbon | 34 | 2.65 | 4.5 | 9.0 | 1.47 | 2.00 |
Is there THAT big of a difference outside of ERA?
EDIT: I clearly fail at HTML/table formatting.
EDIT EDIT: Thanks html table generator website thingy...
successfully achieved 1 year self-imposed posting ban 4/10/13
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 AM |
Sommy, I like you. Us
Sommy, I like you. Us
Sommy, I like you. Us Livonianians (Is that the right term? Jesus talk about cities with no real identity) have to stick together. I haven't negged you. But homie, quit while you're ahead.
When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing. -- Bo Schembechler
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:42 AM |
Sommy this may be the dumbest
Sommy this may be the dumbest
Sommy this may be the dumbest shit I've ever read in the history of the interwebs. Rodney has been more then serviceable in his first full year of closing games. LOLLLL @ Todd Jones being better.
And how does "Everyoneeee" know that Perry won't be a closer. Who is "Everyoneeeee" anyways? You do realize that Perry has spent basically no time in the minors and this is his rookie season, correct? He definately has the skillset to be a major league closer, there's simply no debating that. Like none. The dudes a pure stud.
Have you ever watched baseball games besides the Tigers? Theres no closer in baseball that has a 1-2-3 inning every time....Or even 40% of the time for that matter. This is how baseball works. Even if your the most dominant closer in the world, more times then not, your allowing runners on base.
Learn how baseball works and quit making a jackass out of yourself. My gawddd everything you have posted is pure spew and holds 0 merit.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:09 PM |
While I don't entirely agree
While I don't entirely agree
While I don't entirely agree with Sommy here, calling this the "dumbest shit ever" is a real stretch. There have been far dumber things posted just on this site than "Fernando Rodney isn't a good closer." The negbanging Sommy is getting for this is excessive.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:49 PM |
He got neg-banged (I didn't
He got neg-banged (I didn't
He got neg-banged (I didn't neg him, by the time I got here, he got it enough) because of his dogged insistence on defying all logical and fact-based arguments with "I SAID RODNEY SUCKS. PERIOD."
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:44 AM |
70 posts
70 posts
As I saw this in the morning, I was wondering how a topic on Rodney could have gotten 70 posts, when we won the game.
Look, no one thought Rodney would be the closer at the beginning of the season, heck everyone was drafting Lyon to be the closer in fantasy.
I think he has been great. The problem with him, and it makes us all nervous, is that once out of 4 or 5 games, it seems he can't throw his fastball for a strike. It's not like he walks that many even when this happens, because he always can throw change for the strike, but then hitters can sit on it.
Comparing a player to the best at the position is a losing battle and shows that you are unrealistic. Do you get mad that Inge isn't Longoria?, that Polonco isn't Utley? Your comparing Rodney to the best, Nathan and Papelban, (who actually is leveling off this year), but those are the best.
You can't have the best at every position.
Rodney is a good closer, who can't be trusted, like the majority of closers, to get extra outs in the 8th with the runners ALREADY ON BASE, unlike the best in the game which can, Riveria, Nathan, Paps.
Sommy has put himself in a unlosable argument. He says that Rodney is destined to fail in the future. Then when Rodney blows a game down the stretch, or in the playoffs, he will be the first to claim he was right. Even though, all closers blow games now and then, unless your Gagne 4 years ago.
I expect nothing and therefore never disappointed.
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:34 AM |
Everyone loves a negbang...
Everyone loves a negbang...
Anyone have before and after numbers on this thread? I can roughly count around 60-70 negative points due to Sommy spouting off like a fucking knob.
By the way, nice to see you changed your OP to include his save percentage, at least you don't look nearly as fucking stupid as you did last night.
You're a disgrace to L-town and Detroit Tigers fans everywhere.
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:45 AM |
I did not change my original
I did not change my original
I did not change my original post at any point. There is no mention (nor was there ever any mention) of save percentage.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:48 AM |
Don't believe you
Don't believe you
Sorry, I meant the part about blowing one save out of 25, I know that's not technically how you calculate save percentage with the goofy ass stat, but I figured you'd understand.
You still didn't even admit that last night.
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:49 AM |
Yes, I did.
Had I not said
Yes, I did.
Had I not said
Yes, I did.
Had I not said that in the post to begin with, there wouldn't be a ton of replies that specifically mention that.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:52 AM |
Or...
Or...
Because you didn't put it in the original post, people pointed it out to you to prove how stupid you sound.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:29 PM |
Absolutely false. Of course
Absolutely false. Of course
Absolutely false.
Of course this "problem" (the alleged edit of the original post never happened) could be solved if all edits were watermarked like on other message boards, but this board does not do that.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:07 PM |
What's your problem? Sommy
What's your problem? Sommy
What's your problem? Sommy expressed an opinion but it doesn't mean he's a disgrace. You always seem to try to start something with your posts.
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:16 PM |
No Surprise...
No Surprise...
No surprise, that the King of Kneejerk himself would come to this conclusion.
However, I do believe that the "disgrace" part was a little over the top. He's not a disgrace to L-Town, they have enough of those already.
Stating something like "Rodney is not a good closer. Period" doesn't necessarily lend itself to coming across as an opinion. It comes across as an incorrect statement of fact.
I look forward to you quadruple posting "FUCK Galarraga", "Leyland is an idiot", and other idiotic statements tonight when Galarraga inevitably gives up a homerun.
Have a nice day.
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:42 PM |
You just know me so well.
You just know me so well.
You just know me so well. King of Kneejerk, that's brilliant. I agree that I've reacted too fast/harsh so I'm trying to step away from that and enjoy the games more. But it doesn't change the fact that you're a fucktard.
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:52 PM |
I think I'm willing
I think I'm willing
to separate what people say during games from what they say after them. It's okay to be emotional during games. You can get caught up in the heat of a game. Usually, after the game is over, I'm able to think more rationally.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:36 AM |
I will say this, Baseball
I will say this, Baseball
I will say this, Baseball Prospectus calculates "Reliever Wins added" by taking into account how they pitch, and the leverage of the situation (how close the game is, whether there are men on base, where om base they are), etc. This stat combines both pure pitching results like walks and strikeouts and hits with "clutchness" - they get a better number by performing in close situations, with inherited runners. It is also adjusted given the quality of the opposing hitters that the pitcher faces (the same results against better hitters result in a better WXRL number).
By this metric, Rodney is the 7th most successful relief pitcher in major league baseball this year.
wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:02 AM |
That is a damn
That is a damn
fine season. All the "indicator" stats for Rodney look very good. Can you link that stat from Prospectus for me?
Like I've said all along, I think Rodneys awesome season continues and I have two big reasons for it. Statistically, his line drives have turned into grounders. Second, his fly ball and HR/FB rate have stayed the same as when he had a bad year last year. Often times, a pitchers success can be directly attributed to a fluke fluctuation in HR/FB rate. The fact that Rodney's has NOT changed AND he's gotten better comforts me.
Follow me on Twitter @gfraley05
Mike Hart was a 3-star.
...and by that, I mean helter-skelter, willy-nilly and putt-putt!