What are the arguments supporting B1G/Petitti’s suspension
We’ve heard all the arguments in Michigan’s favor, and how it seems likely that we would be granted an injunction should it come to that. However likely that may seem, there will be arguments presented in court for the conference. What is the legal defense that could persuade the court to deny the injunction?
November 9th, 2023 at 6:13 AM ^
Michigan is mean.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
Ryan Karen Day feels bullied
November 9th, 2023 at 6:15 AM ^
Think of the children. It's all about player safety.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:09 AM ^
The question was in regard to the NCAA, not MSU
/s
November 9th, 2023 at 6:19 AM ^
Argument is 'fuck it we ain't the government we can do whatever we want'
November 9th, 2023 at 7:29 AM ^
Roger?
November 9th, 2023 at 9:00 AM ^
I mean, precisely this? The bylaws are pretty clear in the sportsmanship policy that the commissioner has the authority to determine if an offensive act was committed, and the associated penalty up to a 2 game suspension/$10,000 fine or more if approved by the committee.
In practice, Pettiti has the power to say Harbaugh farting at Big Ten Media days was unsportsmanlike and nail him for 2 games, per the bylaws.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:19 AM ^
I think Mars takes this head on in his letter. The fact that this provision has only been used to punish individuals for talking about refs etc and not for enforcement of rules violations is unprecedented. Mars questions his authority to take measures.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:24 AM ^
Isn't there a first for everything though? We all laughed about the "biggest scandal in the history of the Big Ten conference" line - but can we feasibly name a bigger situation that related to fair competition that came out in the middle of a season? The situation is inherently unprecedented.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:58 AM ^
The bigger issue is how any reasonable person could use the actions of a one person to say that another person behaved in an unsportsmanlike manner.
How do Conor Stalions' alleged actions make Jim Harbaugh unsportsmanlike? The rule has never been applied that way.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:05 AM ^
I agree 100%. And I think it is idiotic to try to push down this punishment ahead of a full investigation and due process.
Yet counterarguments exist and I'm worried the mgocommunity isn't fully appreciating them. I don't think an injunction is guaranteed by any stretch. The Sportsmanship rule places the burden of maintaining the ideals of sporstmanship on the institution. Did something happen that failed the ideals of sportsmanship? I think that appears likely at this point. So a punishment will likely eventually come, and it comes at the institutional level. Suspending the head coach is one avenue to punish the institution. What else are you going to do, suspend the whole team?
November 9th, 2023 at 10:50 AM ^
I wouldn't fold that easily. Like Santa said, Where is the rock solid iron clad evidence you have that Stallions did what he is accused of? I'm not talking about what the media has said or a theory. Do you have evidence and can you prove it? We don't get to Harb until you can prove that part.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
Except, again, the policy contemplates what evidence can be used:
10.2.1 Exclusive Authority to Determine Whether Offensive Actions have Occurred. The Commissioner shall have the exclusive authority to determine whether an offensive action, as contemplated in Agreement 10.01 above, has been committed by anyone referenced in Agreement 10.1 above. In making this determination, the Commissioner may consider any evidence that he or she deems relevant. The Commissioner may accept any information provided by any source.
Repeatedly, the policy is clear and direct that the Commissioner has the sole discretion on this stuff. While I wouldn't fold either - this should be fully litigated - I insist that getting an injunction is not a slam dunk.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:21 AM ^
Does anyone - NCAA, B1G, FOX, ESPN, anyone - have the actual iPhone footage of what Connor Stallions vast network allegedly captured? He bought the tix. People sat in those seats. People had their iPhones pointed at the field. A lot of circumstantial stuff that thus far is not different than when my season ticket holding buddy transfers tix to me and I take a shot of my kids with my iPhone from said seats. I'm not saying it didn't happen just wondering if anyone has actual proof.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:10 AM ^
I’m not sure the Government thinks any differently.
November 9th, 2023 at 6:20 AM ^
I’ll give this a shot —
In person scouting is strictly prohibited by NCAA. There seems to be overwhelming evidence that Saltions was at CMU. Regardless of why, that’s a violation. Harbaugh and Michigan need to be held accountable for breaking a rule that (may have) provided them some advantage.
It seems clear now that everyone was “stealing signs” but the scheme of using a system to circumvent the rule prohibiting on site scouting seems against the spirit of the ban as well.
To be clear, I don’t think we did anything wrong that others weren’t (and aren’t) doing. But that’s the most objective I could be when playing devil’s advocate
November 9th, 2023 at 6:37 AM ^
I actually think "in person scouting" being "strictly prohibited" is in itself a gray area. But let's say it's prohibited as you say. What is an appropriate punishment? For Baylor back in the day the perp was suspended half a game. That seems to be the only precedent consistently mentioned. So since Michigan already went beyond and got rid of the alleged scouter, I think the NCAA and conference issuing a joint statement something along the lines of "don't do that anymore" should put this whole scandal-that-isn't to rest.
November 9th, 2023 at 7:31 AM ^
For the advance scouting argument to work in the case of his presence at the CMU game, wouldn’t it have to be established that he was there in the capacity of a UM coach not a temporary CMU coach?
We won’t know which it is until the NCAA finishes their investigation.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:04 AM ^
I theory it would, but there’s two issues:
1) I can’t imagine CMU admitting they invited him. At best, it was done “hush hush.” If there’s a FOIA returnable email from their staff to Stalions then they deserve a larger punishment
2) I’m not sure motive matters in the sense of why he was there. A hypothetical would be, if Maryland coaches invited an OSU staffer to their sidelines when we played them to allow the filter of OSU’s “scouting knowledge” to assist in bringing down Michigan. We’d all be furious, and though it’s probably not strictly prohibited by black letter rule, it’s likely something that all teams would frown upon equally.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:20 AM ^
The rule is you can't be there. The motive won't matter.
But the precedent already set for punishment of that was 1/2 game suspension for the asst. coach that did it. Not suspending the head coach during a national title run.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:20 AM ^
So you're of the opinion that his being decked out in Chippewa regalia was part of a covert plan to infiltrate the CMU sidelines and hope no one noticed him looking out of place wearing sunglasses at night while standing a mere few feet from McElwain?
November 9th, 2023 at 9:30 AM ^
So you are of the opinion that the man in the photograph was Stalions in disguise (including wearing a wig under his hat) even though there are two CMU staffers that look even more like the man in the photo than Stalions and had sideline duties? There's no reason to prefer the more complex resolution to the question of the man's identity over the simpler resolution, and Occam's Razer tells us the simpler solution is likelier to be true.
People keep talking about "overwhelming evidence" in the CMU/Stalions controversy, but they are just buying the media hype. Could it have been Stalions? Yes. But there's no evidence that it was, so OR applies.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
Many people, including our very own Brian Cook, think it probably was him. I'm happy to be wrong but won't be surprised if I'm not. But that wasn't my point. If it was him, was it really an infiltration or perhaps an invitation?
November 9th, 2023 at 6:43 AM ^
If their entire position is predicated on that advanced, in person scouting is prohibited by the NCAA, the why is the Big Ten doing this before the NCAA has even interviewed any coaches? It makes no sense. Especially when the NCAA said "hey btw Harbaugh didn't do any of this as far as we can tell"
These aren't the Big Ten's rules. Why are they enforcing another entity's rules?
November 9th, 2023 at 7:51 AM ^
They're trying to find a crime to fit a suspension.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:22 AM ^
TING!!
Problem for them is they don't have a very good crime to bring to the table.
They are going to twist themselves into a pretzel to justify jail time for a parking violation, because that's all they have, but it's not going to work
November 9th, 2023 at 7:02 AM ^
Yeah I think thats about the best you can do right now. CMU hasn't even confirmed it was Stallions and Stallions sign stealing scheme hasn't even been investigated nor has Harbaugh been tied to it, which shows how absurd it is the Big Ten is trying to preemptively suspend Jim for nothing
November 9th, 2023 at 7:03 AM ^
I don't know about "overwhelming evidence" that Stalions was at CMU. Literally not one person from CMU has said he was on the sideline. There were dozens of people there....and no one has said it was him. He wasn't on the "visitors list". They don't have anything other than a pic that looks something like him. Absent any personal corroboration....I think the evidence is shaky at best.
That being said, yeah, it was probably him.
November 9th, 2023 at 7:26 AM ^
They haven’t said anything because he was (most likely) there at CMU’s request and they aren’t about to self criminate themselves.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:14 AM ^
That may well be true, but a generic 5'10 white guy in CMU gear and shades and facial hair isn't overwhelming evidence. It's more like one instance of possible but unverified direct evidence
November 9th, 2023 at 8:25 AM ^
But . . . but . . . but Michigan State software said there was a 60% chance it was him.
HANG HIM!!
November 9th, 2023 at 9:07 AM ^
I tried looking into that expert's (and he does seem to be a leader in the field) analysis a bit more with the limited info we had to see what probability of a match .6 was supposed to be as I assumed it wasn't a simple .6 = 60% conversion. I couldn't find an explicit answer, but of all the systems that I looked into, it seemed typical for the conversion to be of exactly that sort. So....suspect!
November 9th, 2023 at 9:37 AM ^
But what the prof failed to mention (or failed to investigate) was whether there was a candidate (like the two similar-looking CMU staffers) that had an even higher match probability. Bad prof! Bad!
November 9th, 2023 at 7:31 AM ^
You could be Stalions...are you Stalions?
November 9th, 2023 at 8:11 AM ^
I’m not Scalions, but.. I am Spartacus..
November 9th, 2023 at 8:24 AM ^
I've been waiting for this exact post since the CMU picture surfaced.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:46 AM ^
I’m not a CMU alum, but I root for them…
November 9th, 2023 at 10:08 AM ^
I’m not Markinson.
November 9th, 2023 at 7:28 AM ^
That’s better than my best attempt, which is:
This isn’t about a cheeseburger.
November 9th, 2023 at 7:49 AM ^
I have a basic question. Presuming that rightly or wrongly Scalion stole signs, was the information he acquired shared and used by other Michigan coaches?
I have read almost everything written on this topic and other than Harbaugh not knowing about Scalion's efforts, where did the information that Scalion acquired go? Who did Scalion report to? Was ihe info even used?
November 9th, 2023 at 8:15 AM ^
These are the questions that everybody is citing due process about. A lot of people are saying that Michigan fans just want to sweep this under the rug, that, frankly, is not what I’m saying at all.
I actually want to know the answers to these questions, and so should the BIG. If the entire coaching staff, minus apparently Harbaugh, knew all about this and they were just breaking the rules and implicitly telling other coaches “you ain’t gonna do nothing,” yes, the program should be punished. Possibly severely depending on how extensive it was and if it is reflective of non-existent institutional control. Michigan football is a big, important entity. If it is a shit show internally, steps may need to be taken, including perhaps staff firings. I would hate it, but shit happens.
Nobody is looking for a get out of jail free card here. But it looks incredibly unlikely that this was something systemic, OR that it is currently still happening, OR that Michigan was getting any advantage from it that other teams don’t get in other ways. All rational people want is for the facts to be determined before any action taken, and that any punishment is proportionate. Is that too much to ask? It doesn’t seem like it is.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:56 AM ^
Did +1 on your point but I differ that the punishment need to fit the crime (so to speak) and michigan wants to be exonerated on the extreme propaganda and hit job that made a molehill into mount everest.. remember, the big 10 commish called this the biggest scandal of the big 10... that should tell the reputation damage Michigan endured.
The argument that the mob is trying to push is since Stallion had (been accused to) stole sign illegally and used it for JH.. Would that mean JH knew that? The obvious is no with data points (cuz it looks pretty sad and lame in terms of "operations".. Now, they are going to say: since the data is tainted (even if JH did not know it) and should still be punished. Of course that don't hold weight with Sportsmanship rule as many pointed out.. and that could apply to those 3 schools still.. that is why thr 3 schools are arguing it was through legal means.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:42 AM ^
I do not agree with this.
Suppose Minter had knowledge of Stalions' methods. Honestly, I do not think it should matter at all.
Now it might matter under a strict application of NCAA rules.
But regardless, it should not matter at all. And I would not view Minter (under this hypothetical situation) as a cheater, immoral, a wrongdoer, etc.
Why? Because the fact of the matter is that programs do acquire each other signs (and even their playbooks, it has been reported). And the fact of the matter is that there is an active ecosystem of analysts and grad assistants sharing this info across programs.
That OSU and Rutgers deciphered Michigan signs and then passed them to Purdue...is not particularly unusual. The coaches on the staffs around the Big Ten and CFB know this, even though most fans do not know it. But this is, in fact, the reality.
So if Minter had found out that Stalions got signals from iPhones and not from a counterpart at a different Big Ten program...who cares?
Getting the signals by iPhone is no more or less immoral or problematic than getting them from the sign guys at some other program.
So in that context, it might (or might not) technically violate the letter of some NCAA rule. But that is exactly when enforcement priorities to deemphasize enforcement of that rule, and (2) and when the outdated rule needs to be eliminated or revised.
November 9th, 2023 at 9:56 AM ^
I am not saying this is true, But if the facts come out and Michigan was funding, Stalions doing this and the coaches knew about it, that is a substantial issue. Once again, I am not saying that is what happened and the NCAA info seems to be that Harbaugh was not involved, but if that was or is the circumstance than it is a different conversation in my opinion.
But again, we don’t know that, because, ya know, they have to investigate it first.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
The NCAA and B1G have had Conor Stalions' expense reports for the past three weeks.
If the university were paying Stalions' expenses for this, they would know by now and it would have leaked to the public.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:10 AM ^
^This. Follow the money.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
Presuming that rightly or wrongly Scalion stole signs, was the information he acquired shared and used by other Michigan coaches?
I have read almost everything written on this topic and other than Harbaugh not knowing about Scalion's efforts, where did the information that Scalion acquired go? Who did Scalion report to? Was ihe info even used?
It was probably used. By all accounts, he was hired to decode signs (and perhaps identify tendencies, etc.). It seems unlikely the coaches would then ignore the information he put together, unless he was just flat out wrong or something (and since he served as a volunteer for years, it seems unlikely that he would have been hired if he did shitty analysis).
But I feel like these questions are irrelevant. He was hired to do something that not only is not against the rules in and of itself, but additionally, it appears, can pretty much entirely be done through legal methods. So if the coaches ask you to do something legal, that can be done in a legal way, why would they expect you to use an illegal method (compounded by the fact that it might not be illegal at all, which makes this all moot anyway).
November 9th, 2023 at 7:56 AM ^
Everybody is assuming Stalion was doing Michigan’s bidding at the CMU game, but the notion that Stalion was there at CMUs behest seems to be overlooked. I can’t imagine a guy getting a pass and sneaking on the sidelines without being noticed. Also, there are no pictures of Stalion recording anything. I think he was there at CMU’s request. Their silence on this matter seems to be a bit telling…
November 9th, 2023 at 8:26 AM ^
There's a shot of a momentary blue glare in the corner of the glasses. People are trying to argue that's evidence of a camera being present.
November 9th, 2023 at 8:47 AM ^
If that was Stalions on the CMU sideline, then it doesn't matter if his sunglasses were a recording device or not. The fact that Stalions was there in the first place breaks the NCAA rule. Isn't this correct? Looking for clarity because I am not sure.
And if it is not proven that it was Stalions on the sidelines, then that allegation dies.