A two part recruiting question about Dual threat Qb's, Pat White and RR's offense
I have been looking at some of the prospects for the top dual threat QB's from next year. And IMHO Devin Gardner will be next years Terrell Pryor. And by that I mean a long drawn out process with him winking at one school while courting another at an in home visit. It seems that he wants to play in a pro style offense. This screams to me that we'll have to do some serious convincing to get this kid to commit to us. It seems that RR's success is having a negative effect on the type of QB that would thrive in his offense. For whatever reason, they don't think that playing in this system will get them to the next level. Okay, so here is the first part of my two part question. And I am hoping that The Other Brian and TomVH can help me out on this one. What is the vibe that you guys get from top prospective dual threat QB's about Michian, particularly about the style of offense that we run? Because to me it seems that the overall perception has been a bit timid, shall we say. Possibly because they don't think that his offense doesn't develop them into pro prospects. And here is the second part of the two parter and trust me, I know this part is purely speculative, but do you guys think that if Pat White goes as a high draft pick that it changes some of their perceptions about RR's offense?
January 18th, 2009 at 4:57 PM ^
Doubt he'll even get drafted. If he does, it'll be by someone looking for Antwan Randle-El.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:04 PM ^
I just don't think it would be as a quarterback. I agree with you on the Antwan Randle EL. But hoping against hope that he does get drafted for what he played college sports for do you think it will change the perception of dual threats coming to play in this system?
January 18th, 2009 at 5:17 PM ^
No. Pat White has 0 effect on the opinions of top QB recruits in High School. Top QB recruits have decent arms, and thus won't be in the same position as Pat White.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:06 PM ^
was a 2nd round pick.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:09 PM ^
Where/when did Gardner say he wants to play in a pro-style offense? Haven't heard that.
And that negative recruiting is getting tiresome. Pretty sad that there are recruits buying the BS about RR being a run-run-run-run-run coach. He did that at WVU because it suited the players he had best. Pat White wasn't/isn't the type of QB you can ask to throw 30-35 times a game, he just wasn't that polished of a passer. On the other hand, he was one of the most electric running QBs to ever play in college, so of course you're going to lean on running the ball more. But you look at RR's days at Clemson and Tulane, and even last season at Michigan...RR wants a balanced offense. We threw the ball a LOT last season, with both Threet and Sheridan. It just so happens that neither of them were particularly good at it.
Once Forcier takes over and gets comfortable, and assuming he translates into a pretty good player, the myths about this offense will be done away with.
As for the "pro style vs. spread translating to the pros" debate, it's the nature of the beast that a QB would be more inclined to prefer a pro style offense in college. That's what obviously is run in the NFL, and by association that would prepare a QB for the NFL the most in college. The struggles of Alex Smith and Vince Young in the NFL haven't helped this.
And the negative recruiting being done by Jim Tressel is disgusting. OSU is going to be much more of a spread team with Wells gone and it being Pryor's team now. It's garbage that recruits listen to him when he badmouths Michigan and RR's offense to QB recruits. What has a Tressel QB ever done in the NFL? Craig Krenzel was in the NFL for a cup of coffee. Troy Smith couldn't beat out a I-AA rookie and has no future as a starter. Shaun King (RR's QB from Tulane) did more in the NFL than any Tressel QB has done.
In the end, it's all about the results on the field. Assuming Forcier is eventually the guy in 09, if the offense is improved and the QB play looks remotely competant, the QB recruits will warm up to us.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:19 PM ^
Tressel uses negative recruiting?
January 18th, 2009 at 5:21 PM ^
I read it on a couple of blogs that Gardner wanted to play in a pro style offense. Thanks for the talk down Brian. I needed to hear that. I assumed as much but it is always good to hear someone with a bit of knowledge about the situation speaking intelligently to it.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:03 PM ^
Pat White will play pro-baseball.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:23 PM ^
RR's success? He has had nothing but success in his career. This year was bad, I agree, but there is no way that ONE bad year should take anything away from how good of a coach he is. Now, if you're referring to the possiblity that some coaches are using this year's record as a recruiting tool? Then I would agree on that.
There is no doubt that some coaches are trying to convince recruits that RR's offense can't produce or develop NFL quarterbacks. These coaches and other critics of "The Spread" should be very careful of what they say in the future.
This year we witnessed Florida win the NC, Oklahoma set NCAA scoring records and Texas (Colt McCoy) set records for completion percentage (and getting screwed by the BC$). All of those offenses ran the...wait for it..."The Spread". The QB's of those teams will be drafted highly possibly all in the 1st round. If you were to privately ask Mark Sanchez why he left early for the draft I suspect he'd tell you that he didn't want to be the 4th QB taken.
The list of QB's that played in Pro-Style offenses that never made it to the NFL or that weren't very good is long. Just ask any of these former stand out QB's like Greg Frey, Kirk Herbseit, Stanley Jackson, Joe Germain, Steve Belli-Sorry and Craig Krenzel how the Pro-Style offense prepared them for the NFL?
January 18th, 2009 at 7:05 PM ^
between the spread that Oklahoma and Texas run and our version, which has been discussed here a few times. Their versions are drop back QB friendly, akin to running the pro 2 minute offense for a whole game. While it is true that we did and will throw the ball, sometimes a lot, it is still not irrational for a top recruit with NFL hopes to shy away from the version RR runs. And to critique pro style offenses with the names of poor players misses the point IMHO
January 18th, 2009 at 7:28 PM ^
My opinion is that an athlete should embrace his skills and try to flourish. I've seen a couple posts here where people are skeptical that Tressel will develop Pryor as a qb. Of course, only time will tell, but I think most coaches are going to take the bird in the hand and try to win with it. Why teach Pryor how to throw when he can just "out-athlete" everyone?
Also, RR's "version" was dependent on a qb who was listed as a 2* DB. I have a feeling that with a qb with any throwing ability, RR will have another half of the playbook he can blow the dust off of. RR wasn't looking for a Pat White; he tailored his offense for Pat once he got there.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:01 PM ^
That difference is talent. Oklahoma and Texas have it and West Virginia doesn't. The Spread that OK and Texas run is a product that RR created at Glenville St. When he started running THE version his offenses were extremely pass heavy, sometimes throwing 50 times a game. That offense won a NC and got him hired by Tulane who had a qb by the name of Shawn King who was not a dual threat qb. I distinctly remember King breaking NCAA passing records which led to him getting drafted. The perception of what this offense can do is distorted because of Pat White, the all-time leader in rushing yards from a qb.
Also, by comparing pro-style offenses with the names of "poor players" proves my point further. It tells me that even a qb who is a "poor player" can play in a pro-style offense IMHO
January 19th, 2009 at 9:54 AM ^
the Pat White distortion comment, which I think is likely true. But I do not believe that the difference between TX, OK and RR's is talent only, there is a scheme difference and more of a desire from RR to have a dual threat QB--Bob Stoops does not care if Bradford runs once ever. But if the offenses are the same as you say (apart from talent), and RR is adapting that offense strictly to the talent available, why did we see Threet, who clearly is not mobile and who's limited talent does not include running, in fact, running?
January 19th, 2009 at 11:42 AM ^
Maybe because he wasn't very accurate last year either? Our offense was forced to be run heavy last year because of our quarterback situation and RR's running scheme is reliant upon the QB keeping the ball at times to keep defenses honest.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:33 PM ^
Shock was asking whether the vest negatively recruits. Do you know this for certain? I am no fan of this guy, but I always had the impression that he was at least a hair above Satan.., I mean Saban.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:35 PM ^
There's really no proof of any coach doing any negative recruiting ever...but it's basically common knowledge behind the scenes that the homely "aw shucks" personna that Tressel puts out for the media is a facade.
January 18th, 2009 at 6:43 PM ^
I'm just counting him as an OSU commit in my mind, by default.
That way, if he goes Blue, I get a pleasant surprise, andd if he goes to tOSO, it's not a big deal.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:25 PM ^
I think that the cupboard is full, or at least there are more quality dual threat options in next years class than there was in this one. So if Gardner decides to go to the enemy there are other dual threats that will buffer the blow of losing him. I just hope that we get the guy because he is home grown. It was always an added bonus watching Drew Henson run up and down the field because he was from Michigan.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:50 PM ^
In a Rivals article, he notes that tO$U was his favorite college growing up. They have yet to offer him, but you have to imagine they are going to...this is going to be a tough recruiting battle.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:54 PM ^
Is Tress setting a precedent? I mean, why would anyone want to go to UOS and start behind Pryor? First Taj, now this. Then again, after watching Boeckman get benched I guess no one is safe...
January 18th, 2009 at 7:53 PM ^
Devin Gardner considers himself to be a quarterback that can run. There's a big difference from that and saying he's a pro-style QB. On passing plays he looks to make the pass, then maks a play with his feet if nothings open. This isn't to say he doesn't like the spread offense.
I think he's a smart kid, with a good head on his shoulders. He's going to start getting a lot of attention over the summer, after camps and more video of his junior year come out. He just got offered by Notre Dame about a week ago. So he's probably going to wait for the offers to come in, narrow those choices down and go from there.
To even speculate on where he's going to go doesn't make sense, because I really don't think he knows yet. I know a lot of players say that, but I really thin he'll look at everyone. Every time I've talked to him he seems pretty unbiased to one side.
I'm not going to throw out a percentage because it's not worth it, and it wouldn't matter anyways. I don't start worrying about those kids until their lists are narrowed down.
January 18th, 2009 at 7:58 PM ^
Have we considered that a top rated, blue chip, OMG SHIRTLESS QB isn't entirely necessary for RR to succeed at Michigan?
I do not advocate the "find a 2* Pat White and turn him into gold!" way of thinking, here. And I am certainly not saying we don't need good players to win a title. But, if you have playmakers and defense you don't absolutely need the 5* shirtless, NFL hopeful QB. Take a look at National Title winners since the BCS era began and tell me how many are starting on Sunday.
Rather, I'll do the legwork :
Tee Martin - 5th Round pick, no noteworthy NFL career
Chris Weinke - 4th round, proud owner of a 17 game losing streak as a starting QB
Josh Heupel - 6th round pick, didn't make the team and moved on to a coaching career
Ken Dorsey - 7th round pick, and actually still playing but has had no real success in the league.
Craig Krenzel - 5th round, no notable NFL achievements and out of the league due to an elbow injury
Matt Mauck - 7th round pick, I think he's on the practice squad with the Titans
Matt Leinart - Finally, a 1st round pick. Something of a bust so far, will be holding the clipboard for Kurt Warner in the Super Bowl though.
Vince Young - Another first rounder! Sitting behind Kerry Collins, possibly suicidal.
Chris Leak - Undrafted free agent signed by the Bears, now rocking out in the CFL
Matt Flynn - 7th round pick, too early to say how his career will go.
Tim Tebow - Lord and Savior.
Now, looking at the teams they played, you'll find a lot of the same names and other luminaries like Eric Crouch, Jason White, Troy Smith, and Michael Vick.
My point is that many of these programs continue to be in the thick of the chase for the BCS title despite their QBs not panning out in the NFL. A QB with a Pro Bowl NFL future is not any sort of pre-req to winning the national title.
January 18th, 2009 at 8:02 PM ^
Concur. I'm watching the Miami-OH vs Delaware playoff game as I type...
January 18th, 2009 at 11:18 PM ^
Booo-ya..excellent post.
January 18th, 2009 at 11:57 PM ^
You mean good college players don't neccesarily become good pros? So we're going to be OK if we don't graduate an NFL starting QB every few years? I don't believe you.
January 19th, 2009 at 12:01 AM ^
check out Texas Tech...system qb's
January 19th, 2009 at 9:01 AM ^
Re-calibrate your sarcasm detector.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:58 AM ^
I don't know if it was your intention but once I got to "I don't believe you" it sounded like Ron Burgandy in my head...and I lol'd.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:57 PM ^
Excellent points Dex.