Scholarship #'s Explanation Please; Also Thoughts on Needs
All,
Can someone please explain how we may take a class of 25 as I've read that we indeed may. I understand that a 5th year could lose a scholarship, but that doesn't get us all the way to 25. I also understand that although attrition bl*ws, it also opens up scholarships. Do walkons who have earned a scholarship, say as a sophmore, retain said scholarship until their eligibility expires? What about "grayshirting"? What exactly does that mean, and how does it work?
My desire for an explanation basically rests in my worry that we are not fulfilling our main needs, which I view to be at least 3 more OL, at least 2 DT, and at least 1 if not 2 WR's. I know that the coaching staff obviously has more experience than me, and should know what they are doing. I am just wondering how we will fill our needs, with all this new excitement about new DB offers, when I was under the impression that with the last class we have basically provided for ample depth, and would just pursue prospects like Richardson.
Thank you to anyone who can explain our numbers, and also appreciate others opinions on what are most dire remaining needs are.
Edit: I left this out. I'm not concerned about all our LB's that we've taken this class. One, they seem exceptionally exceptional, and two I still believe we can move some to FB. Also, Mattison has mentioned the joker position, but god help us if I bring up 3-4, so I'll stop there.
Kind of OT, but I don't think this really deserves its own thread, and it fits here a bit. Are we recruiting Wayne Morgan at S or CB? With the new rumors about Standifer, I was a bit worried about taking both Morgan and Standifer because I thought that they both projected at CB, and we would be too crowded there (both in this class and overall). However, if we are recruiting Morgan at S, I would be happy taking both.
Check out the TomVH thread. Sounds like Morgan may project better at FS.
That sounds a bit more like one guys opinion than anything official (not that anything is really official yet). Because Hoke & his staff often tell recruits what position they are recruiting them as, I thought that maybe there was something out there on Morgan.
He is a junior in high school so it is tough to tell just yet but the staff told both Morgan and Standifer they could play either corner or safety. The final determination won't be made until they step on campus but as of now that is what the staff is telling them.
Alright, thanks. In that case, If Morgan and Standifer commit, that would likely give us a (incredible) 2CB, 1SS, 1FS class.
Grammar question: would that 'a' be an 'an' even though 'incredible' is in parenthesis? I feel like it should be...
about the DB class and "an" vs "a" . . . .
Putting incredible in parenthesis doesn't make writing or grammatical sense
just allude to TomVH as "one guys opinion"
just allude to TomVH as "one guys opinion"
I guarantee if Morgan comes to Michigan he will play safety
IF
months till signing day > commits - projected scholarships
THEN
do not worry
Right now we're at 18, with all 5th year guys getting scholarships and no attrition. As you mentioned, one option we have is to not extend a scholarship to a 5th year senior. Such candidates are Terrence Robinson and Mike Cox. If these guys don't participate much this year, they likely won't get a 5th year. That would bring us to 20.
There is also normal attrition. Since last season ended, we lost Tate, Vinopal, Cullen and DJ Williamson. We also lost a few guys during the season last year. To get to 25, we'd need to lose 5 guys from the current roster, and I don't want to speculate who they would be, but it's possible.
You also mentioned walk-ons not getting scholarships extended, and this is common. Generally, when we have extra spots, we give the walk-ons scholarships on a year to year basis. However, if Kovacs is a starter I doubt we yank his schollie, but it's possible. But if the coaches were to say "Jordan, you expected to be a walk-on and got 2 years of tuition paid for. We need your scholarship for the future of the program so you'll have to pay your last year" that wouldn't exactly be out of line.
Anyhow, I'm not saying we get to 25, but it's certainly well within the realm of possibility.
to speculate that Cox and Robinson won't be invited back. Not that you're the first to do so...
Let's put it another way: there is probably (almost certainly) going to be some attrition, whether by coach's choice (unrenewed 5th years or unrenewed scholarships to walk-ons) or not is TBD.
I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I'm not hoping they don't get asked back or wishing any kind of ill-will on them at all. I'm not advocating the coaches cut of scholarships to anyone who hasn't had 4 years to complete their degree.
Unrenewed 5th years is a common and accepted practice. It just so happens that Cox and Robinson have played very little in their first 2 years of eligibility and it's not a stretch to think they might be the first to not get a 5th year.
and then give him the first one that opens up. It's a long time between signing day and fall.
There's no way they can yank Kovacs' scholarship after being a 3 year starter (assuming he starts this year) and one of the best tacklers and leaders on the team. He has earned it.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyone but Cox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we can pick up a five star or two by taking a scholarship away from a kicker or two? I don't want to think that way but both Gibbons and Broekhuizen are by far the two least deserving scholarship holders in the current class.
/only partly saracastic
Broekhuizen is not on scholarship, and we're not going to take a scholarship from anyone who hasn't completed their degree or who wasn't a walk-on to begin with. That's not how you do things.
That said, if Matt Wile comes in and takes of the kicking duties right away, Gibbons might decide to head elsewhere instead of ride the pine at UM.
sorry but the way Gibbons has kicked he'll be riding the pine anywhere he transferred to. i seriously doubt he would give up his michigan education to try to crack the line up at another school. he deserves his four years of scholarship despite his busto.
Just because it's how it's happened the last three times I think it's more likely we have underclassmen transfer as opposed to 5th year seniors getting dumped. We have some redundant players now (through no fault of their own) who might want a better shot at playing while in college, more likely for out of state kids who didn't grow up watching the program. The coaches seem to be counting on it so it'll probably happen.
I'll start with class projection based on size/what the staff is looking for, etc.. Way I see it:
1 QB, 1 RB/FB, 1 WR, 2 TE, 5 OL, 6 DL, 4 LB, 4 DB.
That's a class of 24. Assume if they wanted to take 25 then they could just add someone whereever. I could also see them dumping 1 or more of the QB,RB/FB,WR needs for someone else.
We have 18 open scholarships right now. That number comes from a total class of 82 scholarship players, 15 of whom are graduating seniors. We also have 11 redshirt juniors. The extra room can come from two places.
One is unanticipated departures (transfers, academics, joining a cult and disappearing off the face of the Earth, etc.). The class size started at 15, but the transfers of Christian, Vinopal and Williamson have grown it to 18. That's also why we only have 82 players on scholarship. Every additional non-senior to leave opens a scholarship for this class.
The other way to open up space which if we take a class of 24/25, we'll probably need to do is to not renew some of the 11 redshirt juniors for a fifth year. People have mixed feelings on that but the biggest concern as it pertains to this discussion is that a lot of those guys are at positions where we'll likely be shorthanded in 2012 (interior OL, WR, etc.) so releasing them in favour of a true freshman might be beneficial in the long run but could hurt for 2012.
Moral of the story is that we have 18 open now. There will inevitably be more attrition. And if necessary, the staff might have to delve in to the not giving guys 5th years territory. Regardless, it should all work out in the end.
Here are my only questions with what you are saying. We have Godin, Ojemudia and Brown already for DL. Ojemudia is barely big enough for DE so he definitely isn't a DT, Brown is a DE, and Godin is barely a DT at the next level as Magnus has explained.
That means we need at least 2 DT's still. We are in on some big time players in Pipkins, Day Jaleel Johnson, and yes even Aziz Shittu and Jarron Jones and even Danny O'Brien. If 3 of these guys want to commit, I say we should take them we are very thin at DT and these are all top caliber guys.
If we were to take three of these that means we would be all set. Do you honestly see us turning away Washington who we are recruiting so hard? What about Strobel who just visited? Then there is Pittman and Odenigbo who could become more interested in us now. I guess I just see us taking atleast 7 DLs at the end of the day but I agree i dont know where this is going to come from.
I honestly think we should take 6 OL with everyone we are in on. (not going to name them all)
I would honestly start to say if we don't get Kiel, we don't take a QB which earlier in the year you can check on this blog I have always said you take a QB every year no matter what. But that position and RB are the two spots I think we can wait on unless its Kiel or Dunn.
Honestly if we take 4 DB's, I am starting to think like you said somehow (not going to speculate on how we get there there is a long time) we will end up with a 25 man class. Just seems that is the way these coaches are going now.
Yeah it's not set in stone how things will break down. And some guys could end up elsewhere which skews it a bit (Ojemudia as a LB or a DE, Godin as a DE/DT, Williams as a TE/OL).
As for taking talent if it's available (like Washington or Strobel), I agree that you make room for them provided they're not going to prevent a stud at a position of need from coming. Benefit with those guys is that they'll probably decide late and the staff will have a better idea of what's still out there by then. If they miss on all the big RBs/QBs etc. then they might just say screw it and take the best player they can regardless of position rather then a backup plan.
I was skeptical too of a 25-man class but based on all the top-flight kids interested in us and from what the staff have told recruits about numbers, I see it turning out that way. I thought I was being generously low at a few positions in breaking it down and I still came out to 24 players. Not sure where the room will come from yet but that's future Hoke's problem to deal with.
Can't we over sign by three (or 28 total?) as long as we have no more than the max of 85 by the time the season starts?
We can provided at least 3 kids are early enrollees. That's dependent on 10 kids leaving though and that's a little extreme. But yes, 28 is technically the limit on this class provided we have 3 EE's to backdate and we wouldn't go over 85.
In my opinion 25 isn't as big of a stretch as it sounds. This class won't set foot on campus until after another season of football has been played. Unfortunately after the season some players won't like the playing time they are seeing under the new staff, this will lead to a few more transfers. I am unsure of the exact date that your roster has to be at 85 but off the top of my head I am guessing at some point in August. So this would also mean Spring ball will pass before we have to be at 85 as well. Like others you hate to see any kid leave but it is inevitable as we all know.
I'm expecting a few more players who are being lost in the shuffle to transfer, giving plenty of spots for what should be a great incoming class. The players should know where they stand and what their chances are now. I am guessing that a few of the little guys are tall enough to see the writing on the wall.