Rules Question: Stiff Arm
While watching the OSU-Penn St game there was a sequence of events that had me questioning the rules in regards to the stiff arm and facemask/illegal hands to the face.
During the game, Dobbins got horse-collared during a play where he blatantly had his hands in a defenders face mask. This made me think about how often stiff arms happen and it basically always is the runners hand going directly into the face mask of the defender. In every other situation that’s a penalty. If an o-lineman does that it’s illegal hands to the face. If a defender does that it’s called that or facemask.
My question is: is there a difference in the rule that you can use your hands to the face of a defender if you have the ball in your hand? If not, why is this penalty rarely if ever called?
Between this and when there is an intentional helmet to helmet “truck” that isn’t ever called targeting, are two situations where it seems the rule book unfairly gives an advantage to a ball carrier over a defender.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:19 PM ^
This question always intrigued me. When a running back extends their arm to do a stiff arm, what if the defensive player grabs their arm and pulls them to the ground, is that a penalty? It seems they are offering a part of their body for an easy tackle.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:27 PM ^
You can definitely tackle someone by their arm.
November 24th, 2019 at 9:33 AM ^
...and hair. The dudes with hair hanging out of their helmets provide an extra place to grab.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:20 PM ^
Did it make it more likely that OSU remained undefeated and that the Big Ten will get a huge payoff by having a team in the playoff? If so, then it’s allowed.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:21 PM ^
The ball carrier can push on the defender’s face mask, a la Emmitt Smith, in order to keep the defender from tackling him, but he can not grasp it or use it in any way to twist the defender’s head. I can’t give much more detail than that.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:30 PM ^
You're mixing up a few things. Facemask is grabbing the facemask and pulling. Ball carriers would get penalized for this, but stiff arms aren't supposed to grasp only push. Illegal hands to the face is a rule regarding blocking and getting off blocks (and I've only ever seen it called on linemen), it doesn't apply to someone warding off a would be tackler.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:34 PM ^
Okay, that clarifies it a little better. I guess if a defender is tackling a ball carrier and their arm comes across a facemask then it isn’t a penalty either
November 24th, 2019 at 8:23 AM ^
Gets called on DBs too, mostly when they are trying to jam the WR and their hands get into the WRs facemask
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:30 PM ^
I'm gonna hijack this thread with a dumb officiating question I've had for a couple weeks now. Hopefully someone can answer both this and OP.
When the defense commits a penalty in their own endzone the ball is automatically placed at the 2 yard line. If the offense is at the 1 yard line and the defense commits something like pass interference what happens? Does it move backwards to the 2 along with the first down (I doubt this, but rules are often irrational)? Does it stay where it was? Is it half the distance to the goal?
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:37 PM ^
I'd assume that would be a "half the distance to the goal" penalty.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:45 PM ^
If you were at the 1 and a penalty would move the ball to the 2, you would obviously decline that penalty, although I guess a fresh set of downs would definitely be worth 1 yard in many circumstances.
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:44 PM ^
For the face mask/stiff arm, the difference is that the runner does not grasp the face mask. If they put there hand out and make contact with the face mask without grabbing onto it, no penalty has occurred. Rule 9, section 1, Article 8(a)
For illegal hands to the face - There is a specific exception for ball carriers. In college the rule is the player cannot make continual contact with helmet, face mask or neck area, except for the on or by the ball carrier or simulated ball carrier. Rule 9, section 1, Article 8(b).
November 23rd, 2019 at 11:56 PM ^
Pretty sure I saw the play you're talking about.
If so it seemed that both the defender and JK were grabbing each others facemask. The defender let go earlier but JK did not. Then he gets called for horse collar. Ball carrier is allowed to push defender in face or any part of helmet in "talk to the hand" way - but once fingers are inside facemask or grabbing defenders facemask it should be a penalty. In this case they could've called it on both players and they would've offset.
While we're on penalties - one of the most confusing ones to me is why when a ball carrier fumbles at say the 1 yard line and it squirts through the endzone in any direction and goes out of bounds it is a touchback and ball goes to other team at the 20. Seems illogical. Penalties seem like they are in place to punish one team for what seems like they would be gaining an advantage if not called.
And I will never understand how "spiking" or "clocking" the ball is not intentional grounding. You can try to explain but it will never make sense.
November 24th, 2019 at 12:22 AM ^
There has to be an explicit rule that allows this, because it can only be done under center and not out of the gun
November 24th, 2019 at 2:53 AM ^
Yes there is an explicit rule that allows it. Before the rule 1980s?, QBs would throw it OOB over their outside receiver’s heads. If they threw it ‘too’ high or wide everyone would complain, and occasionally it would be called. It was a dumb rule. But when they changed it, everyone spent half of the season complaining about how stupid it looked to have the QB throw the ball straight into the ground. ....proving that you can’t win
November 24th, 2019 at 7:21 AM ^
Intentional grounding is throwing the ball away to avoid a sack while inside the pocket. Spiking the ball is not done to avoid a sack, it’s done to kill the clock. Depending on time and place, everyone on the field knows the difference. That’s why officials often huddle up to discuss it before dropping the flag.
November 24th, 2019 at 9:42 AM ^
Nobody really went after the "truck" part of the question, which confuses me also:
It seems to me that a ball carrier is allowed to lower the head and lead with the crown of the helmet into a defender, even helmet to helmet, without a penalty. How is this any better than targeting?
November 24th, 2019 at 1:34 PM ^
When I realized that "targeting" rules aren't about player safety but, rather they are about giving the offense another advantage, it all made sense to me. Because if it was about player safety then a defensive player attempting a classic thigh high tackle would be considered the victim of targeting should a ball carrier launch himself head first into a defender to gain more yards.
One of the most absurd targeting calls, and ejection, I've seen was during a game last year in which the exact example I described occurred. The rest of story is that the ball carrier got up and walked back to his bench, the defender was being attended to while laying face down on the field of play even as he was being ejected for targeting.
November 24th, 2019 at 10:18 AM ^
Stiff arm is allowed to push on a defenders mask, can not grab it. Grabbing a stiff arm is a lot harder that you think. The problem for linemen is when they push up on a facemask and starts to push the helmet off. Before double chin straps helmets would come off a lot. Can not let your hands enter the face area behind the mask. Yes the Dobbins call should have went both ways.