New stay at home order for Michigan - no visiting friends and neighbors
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/04/09/no-more-visiting-friends-and-neighbors-under-whitmers-expanded-coronavirus-order/5125426002/
Sorry for the freep link. However,
1. A PSA for those that didn't catch this portion of the new mandate.
2. How is everyone feeling about this? Too long, too short of a time to continue social distancing?
Thus far my family and I have been adhering to everything but the continue infringement on our civil liberties is starting to get a bit concerning.
I admit that not everyone is social distancing.
But it is my observation that the vast majority of people ARE doing their best.
So that's good.
But when you start ordering executive orders (like this one) that literally ban Wal-Mart and Meijer from selling paint, carpet and gardening materials ................
That seems overbearing.
As I said, most people ARE doing their best. Adults are able to go into a Meijer, wear a mask, keep away from people, and buy some paint alongside other things.
I think this Executive Order is unnecessary. Treat your constituents like adults, not like 9-year-olds. Trust that they can buy a can of paint at Meijer, and that's not going to result in hundreds of people dying.
I tend to agree about the paint, gardening supplies, plants, etc.
People still need to maintain their homes, and structures, which paint is kind of important for. A lot of people grow much of their own food at home, now they will be out of luck as well. That one is particularly grating to me, and seems very short sighted. Puts more strain on food supply chain, forces more people into public to provision. That part is just dumb.
Michigan also banned travel between main residences and summer homes.
So, my brother is a diabetic and he headed Up North to "work from home" and avoid crowds. Now, he is being forced to head back to the hardest his county in Michigan. Doesn't seam right.
Also, cops are standing outside of Home Depot writing tickets to people who purchased "non essential" items. Other people drove into the parking lot, saw the cops,and left - even if they only needed essential items.
Both are over the top totalitarianism
April 10th, 2020 at 10:31 AM ^
Why does your brother have to leave? I completely agree with staying put as to where you are.
If your traveling from southern Michigan to northern Michigan you could be part of the problem. Why even risk it.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:32 PM ^
Risk what? What risk is involved with a family going to their cabin up north?
April 10th, 2020 at 12:37 PM ^
The risk is that a lot of folks are going to carry the virus up north and spread it when they go to the grocery store.
You realize the virus has to spread right? It's only a question of whether it spreads too fast for hospitals to manage.
This is not adding to that risk.
The problem is northern Michigan doesn’t have the beds to support a massive ill population of people go there to vacay. It’s not bc Whitmer wants to take your rights. Ease up on the paranoia FFS.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:54 AM ^
The ticket writing seems bizarre. Did the state police go through the tens of thousands of Home Depot SKUs and determine what is essential and what isn't? Seems like a pointless overreach
Don't know. My guess is they looked in your cart, saw some spring flowers and a bag of soil, then wrote a ticket.
It's essential that people are allowed to do normal things while on lock-down.
agreed re: most are doing what needs to be done, and that these additional restrictions are unnecessary. no plants? no seeds? is there now a gardening gestapo?
we got morons on our team.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:20 AM ^
It's spelled "morans".
April 10th, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^
It's hard for me to view this outside of a political context, but I think the increasingly punitive measures to keep people from work and isolated at home are draconian and completely antithetical to our way of life.
Doctor Birx from the task force admitted on TV they are assigning deaths to COVID-19 even if those who test positive have other terminal maladies that caused their death. So the mortality numbers are artificially inflated.
I've also come to believe based on various articles I've come across that our testing isn't necessary COVID-19 specific. This would help explain why we hear that most people diagnosed with coronavirus are showing nothing more than cold or flu-like symptoms. This is because the wide array of coronavirus strains (and there are a lot of them) cause nothing more than a typical cold or flu-like illness. Many believe the test kits, at best, indicate that people have some viral DNA in their cells, which most people do, most of the time. The tests may suggest that the viral sequence that shows up is related to a specific type of virus – for instance the huge family of coronavirus, but nothing more.
Donning my tin foil hat, I'd proffer that if you hypothetically wanted to create a pandemic panic, you would do best to pick a coronavirus.
Of course, we should always encourage healthy hygienic habits and our leaders should broadcast that mantra. We should also take extra care to protect those most vulnerable to COVID-19 such as the elderly in nursing homes. However, life itself is a risk. I could die today or tomorrow in any number of ways, for any number of reasons. To my way of thinking, and notwithstanding the sudden and mysterious appearance of COVID-19, allowing ourselves to be coddled, controlled and quarantined in no way promotes life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but rather incremental acquiescence to increasingly totalitarian leadership.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:56 AM ^
They are counting the deaths as they should. If you had heart disease, but contracted covid and died, it's the covid that killed you. Even if someone would only have lived a few more months. That's not controversial, or shouldn't be, if not for politics being central to everything today.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:54 PM ^
So with that rudimentary logic...AIDS has not killed a single person. All AIDS does is decimate the immune system...people with AIDS complications die when they catch the flu or pneumonia, or even common cold...so...that's the logic? Sorry it's not that simple.
That's correct about AIDS. Covid-19 appears to function similarly, weakening patients to the point that pneumonia finally pushes them over the ledge. Determining the cause of death is often complicated.
Regardless, it's far more likely, given our limited testing, that our official Covid death count is low. We're only counting people who tested positive and then died in a hospital. If you die at home you're probably overlooked. There are reports of large numbers of New Yorkers getting missed in the death counts.
Agreed JM the only thing we know is we don't know...far too many variables and too much conflicting opinion and information. Stay away from people that is all.
That's a fair point about AIDS.
and for the record Timmmaay...I also understand the point you were making, most people don't understand discourse and argument. It's semantics, but if they are trying to use death toll to verify and justify...it's not going to be very accurate if Dr. Timmmmaay records everyone who had COVID and dies as a direct death and Dr. Blue says...no, they had chronic heart failure and a three months to live diagnosis...I'm putting down heart failure exacerbated by COVID...now the data is off. It's a no win scenario.
Discourse is becoming harder by the day. So few have intellectual honesty, or intellectual curiosity it's discouraging. I don't entirely disagree with your logic, this just "feels" like something that needs a fair accounting. The political bs is probably what's driving that for me.
April 10th, 2020 at 11:09 AM ^
As far as counting is concerned, yeah, it's almost certainly imperfect. There's at least a possibility that undercounting could happen, though:
Getting tired of non-medical boneheads talking out of their ass.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:35 AM ^
can order most gardening stuff, incl plants and seeds, online and get it delivered
And also the ban only applies to stores larger than 50,000 square feet. Places like Ace Hardare and smaller hardware stores will still be open and selling this stuff and paint. Hell, some country gas stations sell seeds.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:59 AM ^
Agreed. We're stuck at home and gardening is one of the safe things we can do, and now we can't buy any supplies unless it can be shipped via Amazon? - which is still allowed, unless Michigan is going to start intercepting shipments to see what's in them. Geez, enough is enough.
Just don't buy that shit at Lowe's or Meijers. Shop smaller and more local.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:02 PM ^
I think the garden center restrictions, though wrong, are as the result of a number of violations of the social distancing orders as spelled out in the original order. As a result of violations by some, the overreaching new rules hit and hurt us all.
For instance, the Benton Township (MI) Lowe's is now closed except for online ordering and pickup, largely because of non-compliance in their Garden Dept, while nearby Home Depot is still open because they reportedly were much more compliant right from the start.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:57 PM ^
I could see by summer there will be COVID-19 virus free cards given to those who got tested and the results are negative or you test positive with no symptoms for 30 days. Those with the cards will get to live free in the US. Those without cards, who are caught outside of their home, will be thrown in jail or if they have the virus get quarantine at home with ankle bracelets for 1 month.
Funny, but it should work the opposite. If you've had the virus, you have immunity, and you're part of the free group.
Should be tattooed with a registration number. If we're going police state, let's jump in the deep end.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:12 AM ^
Hopefully people understand why I was freaking out about this when the order was first put in place. This is walking a fine line.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:38 AM ^
Yep.
I'm not saying an Executive should never be granted state of emergency powers.
But when you do grant an Executive those powers, there's always the chance they'll grab more and more and more and ...........
To be clear, I think the majority of Governors are acting well. Not all, IMO. I'll leave it at that.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:40 AM ^
They have a month. Then this nonsense needs to stop. This governor has no clue what to do and is panicking.
April 10th, 2020 at 11:09 AM ^
I didn't read that post until about 200+ comments were in, and at that point it's useless to comment. The piling on was unnecessary. It's right and American to question what our government decrees we can and cannot do at every turn, no matter where you are on the political spectrum.
And it's perfectly appropriate to use Nazi Germany as a good example. People tend to forget he was elected. There are other regimes, in Russia and Venezuela recently, that were elected and "never left" too, but depending on where you are in the political spectrum you may not think they are universally terrible. Everyone knows who Adolf Hitler is and what he did, and except for about 0.0001% of the population, everyone agrees what he did was evil.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:58 PM ^
I guess the comparison to Nazi Germany loses me pretty quickly. In no way, shape, or form are the institutional foundations in place to enable something like that to occur from an - albeit, terrible - pandemic. It's just not logical in my mind to jump to the worst possible conclusion when there are several other archetypes out there from the 19th and 20th centuries that suggest democracies can install these type of "draconian" measures for a period of time and then lift them when the threat is gone:
- Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War
- Winston Churchill during WW2
- Charles de Gaulle during the Riots of 1968
In all cases, extreme but necessary measures were taken to win wars, inhibit insurrections, and establish social order. And - in all cases - civil liberties were reinstated once the "objective" was accomplished, which have been preserved.
A great thing about the United States is we have the moral authority to question the motives and actions of our government - publicly and privately. A terrible thing about the United States, however, is we have the moral authority to question the motives and actions of our government. I choose to believe - like the cases mentioned above - we have these measures in place for a reason, and they'll be lessened when the time is both safe and appropriate.
Who determines "safe and appropriate"?
Your three examples, did they also advocate one should be informing on their neighbors? Did any of them state that one could only move freely if one had a card or papers that deemed them socially acceptable? Did any of them ban religious gatherings? The example of Nazi Germany, or similar totalitarian states, is reflective on how fast and easily the American people seem to accept a police state.
Who determines "safe and appropriate?" We still haven't regained all the civil liberties we enjoyed on September 10, 2001.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:13 AM ^
I kinda agree, but I think it really comes down to "vital services". I do think stores like Lowes and Home Depot need to remain open. The problem that I see is that people are using the down time to conduct home improvements and perform refurbishments; this is where I disagree, this is not the time to be stocking up on supplies and getting all of your "WANTS" accomplished. It's irresponsible and complete douche'-baggery.
The real problem here is a sociological one, we're addicted to instant gratification... I hate to use an old biblical cliche' but it is appropriate... "Be still, and listen". Just stay at home, get some exercise, read a few books, enjoy your back porch on your own with the radio on. The pandemic is taking us back to simpler times... I for one... am enjoying the less congested roads on my way to work, hiking/running a few miles and not having to worry about drunk drivers or asshats too busy looking at their cell phones that drive by braille.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:27 AM ^
I've been following the lockdown rules to a T and started wearing gloves and a mask a month ago before anyone else was.
I've been working from home every day and using this time to do some much needed home repairs and improvements. I'm finishing the kitchen floor today and tomorrow. My next item was to repaint the dining room and the chimney.
I don't understand the not being allowed to buy paint rule at all.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:15 PM ^
It's a huuuuge overreach. It's dangerous because even regular "I'm ok with this because it's the right thing to do" people are going to lash back against it. It's punitive because millions of people are being sequestered in their homes, and now even harmless activities of home maintenance are being rendered illegal.
And it significantly damages the government's credibility, because this is not an action that is in any way based upon evidence that the activities now specifically banned (and punished!) are causing any harm.
People are flying blind here. We need to show some grace toward people, but leaders also have to be careful not to misuse their authority.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:47 AM ^
Those who can't work from home have enormous amounts of time on their hands and their houses and yards need a lot of work. I don't see how stopping them from working by themselves around home is worthwhile.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:54 AM ^
Was this intended to be sarcastic? Nobody is stopping people from "working by themselves around home."
April 10th, 2020 at 10:57 AM ^
Completely missing the point...
The problem is NOT about you folks being at home, isolated, and making home improvements.
It's that all of those jobs, tasks, "wants", require you to go to the store and purchase items, thereby increasing risk of the spread of the virus. I don't understand, why you don't understand?!
Is this a complete lack of education in cause and effect? UofM education FTL..."me me me, I want, I want, I want..." <----this is all I heard in your rant. Simmer down little kiddie, we'll arrive at our destination soon, just be patient.
You do realize the virus will spread, right? It's not preventable. It's a matter of balancing the rate at which it spreads vs. hospital capacity.
We are past peak new cases. UofM no longer thinks it will need secondary contingency plans like using the dorms.
It's fine to extend the shelter in place order til hospitals catch back up, but once they do, life has to resume. We aren't going to shelter in place until a vaccine happens.
Yes, I do sometimes worry about the critical thinking capabilities of other alums.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:47 AM ^
this is insane. so you can go out and buy groceries but you can't buy items to fix some things at your house. where is the risk? is there going to be a huge run for paint at the home depot? it's up to home depot to ensure social distancing is maintained. not whether or not bread or paint happens to be in their shopping cart.
jfc, you literally are not allowed to sit at home and watch the paint dry.
April 10th, 2020 at 10:52 AM ^
food more essential than paint
fewer people going out to stores = less death
not hard
April 10th, 2020 at 12:03 PM ^
I don't live in Michigan so this doesnt affect me but it does sound a little unnecessary.
But at the same time I think the logic behind it was that on the weekends a lot of Lowes and Home Depots (even where I live) were packed the last few Saturdays with people who thought 'oh if I'm stuck inside I'll just head on down to the Home Depot and wander the aisles and get some stuff'. And then suddenly, everyone who has been inside all week are now congregating in one location, essentially defeating the purpose of the stay at home orders
I mean - you have to give people something to during this crisis and maintaining upkeep and doing projects on their home is a perfect solution. But they need to figure out a better way to allow people to get the supplies they need to do it.
April 10th, 2020 at 12:58 PM ^
Yes, and if we set the speed limit on highways at 35, that would save lives as well. The question is whether the incremental risk justifies telling someone who shops at Meijer they can buy groceries but can't walk to the other end of the store. It's clear you feel pretty strongly this is an absolutely clear case of the benefit outweighing the harm. Reasonable minds can differ, but that discussing things like an adult requires some measure of respect for those with whom you disagree.
First part correct.
Second part incorrect.
The virus will spread and it will kill. The goal is to manage hospital ICU load, which we have been doing effectively given the outbreak in Detroit. Extending the current measures makes sense. Adding more measures with no obvious benefit but obvious costs, not good.
Not hard.