Lloyd Carr's Twin
Stole this from over at Scout.com's Crisler Corner, and thought it was worth a post. I can't verify the stats, so I assume they're right (okay, I can verify them but I don't feel like it). Pretty interesting comparison, albeit apples to oranges.
Carr---.753 %
Izzo---.715 %
Carr--- 5 BTT in 13 years
Izzo---6 BTT in 15 years
Carr---1 NC
Izzo--- 1 NC
Carr--- 10-3 dominance vs. MSU
Izzo--- 18-8 dominance vs. UM
Carr--- 5 BCS Bowl games (big 4 bowl games), including 97 preBCS
Izzo--- 6 Final Fours
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Not an MSU post...a UM/MSU post...is that allowed?
Definitely allowed, it's a free MGoCountry. Izzo just seems to be a recurring theme here. I understand that you're comparing his record/success to that of Lloyd Carr; I just don't understand why someone would care to do so.
Because my mother told me numbers are fun. Other than that, I have no answer.
Fair enough; I'll agree with your conclusion.
Pretty interesting comparison, albeit apples to oranges.Only thing I'll add... He's Lloyd Carr's EVIL twin.
au contraire mon frere! I bet Lloyd's evil twin would look something like this:
Note: You can tell this isn't Lloyd in disguise because Lloyd never smiled....
Note: You can tell this isn't Lloyd in disguise because Lloyd never smiled....
It's that evil versions should always have GOATEES!
lmao...i wish i coul give you 100 points for that
The entire country is all over Tom Izzo's nuts for how good of a coach he is.
Yet even people on this board wanted Lloyd Carr gone a long time ago.
In a way, this comparison might put things in perspective and show that maybe, just maybe, Carr was a pretty damn good coach.
That's definitely a great point. Those numbers speak volumes about how successful Lloyd was (more so than they do about Izzo's success, when you take into account perception.)
Great coach but an even better man. Lets be honest about Lloyd. He was way past his prime when he left. The team needed a new general.
Thank you for proving my point.
He was 4 points away from playing in the national championship game the year before he retired.
I am not one of those who called for Lloyd's head, I always thought he was great. Debord on the other hand...
And then he became the only coach in the history of college football to be ranked in the top 10 and lose to a DII team. Not to mention that team had 5 offensive players drafted into the NFL the following year.
Appalachian State is an FCS school, which is Division 1 in football (or what used to be called Division 1-AA). It's not Division 2, and yes, it does make a difference in your post. Michigan State lost to a Division 2 school in an exhibition game - GVSU.
Still doesn't make the loss any less excusable, but please, check your facts.
Did UM lose to Grand Valley State or something? I must've missed that
Appy State. Sorry, you lose.
+1. Do that many people disagree with your comment? You're exactly right.
Eh, it's just the crew of Lloyd-haters 'round these parts.
Or just one with a lot of IP addresses...
While I agree Lloyd was a great coach that never really got his due, there is a big difference between him and Izzo. The main reason I find Izzo to be more impressive is his improvement over his predecessors.
Basically Lloyd kept the status quo. His winning percentage was basically equal to the program standard and slightly lower than the previous 20 years.
Izzo on the other hand basically took over a program that had hovered around .500 for the previous 30 years. Jud Hethecote had a confernce winning percentage of .532. Not so hot. He won 1!! Big Ten championship in the 17 years after Magic left town.
Izoo took over a program that was the definition of mediocre and turned it into a top 5 program in the country. That is very impressive. Lloyd on the other hand took a top 5 program and basically made it a top 8 program. Also great, but nothing compared into turning Michigan State into a programs that does not even remotely resemble what it was 15 years ago.
Now maybe Izzo got lucky with Michigan being down, maybe he got lucky with the draw in the NCAA tourney. But what has happend to States BBall program over the last 15 years in almost unprecedented. 15 years ago you probably couldn't find a person who thought presently or histrionically Michigan State had a better basketball program than Michigan. Now if you asked that question today people would laugh in your face. Never mind Michigan still owns the all time series record, has an equal number of big ten championships, and owns 1 less natty cha cha.
...and make them great? Ok, every program not named "NC", "Kentucky", "UCLA", "Kansas", "Indiana" or "Duke" is going to be surprised they never had a top 5 program. UNLV and the rest, you never happened!
It's been a decade. Programs come and go. And they don't all start out great. Or stay that way. (Florida?).
And I don't know if you consider "improving the program" winning it's only Nationsl Championship in 50 years, but when you're already good, there's less room to grow. And you're kidding yourself if you think Michigan was a "top 5 program" in Bo's latter years, or Mo's. (Heck, even in Bo's early years they played one big game, and if they won that, played another and usually lost). It was all about sustained excellence. Which Bo, Mo, and Lloyd did, for almost 40 years...
The parallels are interesting though.
And no, I am not trying to prepetuate the RCMB South meme any further.
I'd still take Carr in a fistfight...
Hmmm, I see what you're saying, and if you analyze strictly those numbers, it makes sense. The Final Four appearances are one game away from a national championship every season, and I just don't think that every other year Carr was in contention for a NC. Still, Carr was an excellent coach.
But couldn't you say in most of the seasons where you play in a BCS Bowl, if you had won 1 more game, you'd be playing for a National Championship? 2006, obviously. The Orange Bowl Team would have had it won vs. either MSU or U-I. Other years maybe not as much...others maybe as much. But you are kinda 1 game away from playing for the championship if you're at that level.
Hmmm...okay.
Carr---One of the most upstanding men to ever live
Izzo---Whiny pussy
Despite your stats,
Carr >>>>>>>>>>>> Izzo
Seriously fuck Tom Izzo. Two weeks ago I actually respected the man for being a great coach but after weeks of Tom Izzo posts and would you root for MSU posts I have a new found hatred for both. Thank you all for allowing me to hate again.
is Lloyd Carr did not come out of the closet with Steve Mariucci on HBO.
FBall BTT = BCS
BBall BTT ≠ Final Four
One of these two men had a fun habit of calling recruits to tell them he had inside info that U-M would receive the NCAA death penalty.
The other refused to publicly lobby for his own school to go to the title game over Florida, considering it unsportsmanlike.
As a human being, Carr >>> Izzo.
How right you are. I got a lot less okay with Izzo after his anti-ref post-game rant the other night. That was really kind of sleazy.
Coach Carr would have better quotes and bring THE KNOWLEDGE.
When did Izzo lose to a high school team, when he was ranked #5 in the nation, at home?
when Lloyd did?
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3092661
BOOM History'd. #8 losing to a D-2 team.
Izzo did lose to GVSU, although it was an exhibition game.
A good friend of mine compared Izzo's coaching style in basketball to what is traditionally considered 'mid-western' style football with respect to the philosophies of ball control and playing tough defense and that Izzo will always get his respect even though he hates State.
I since jumped on board with that analogy as it fit with the style of Bball that I enjoyed with the Pistons throughout most of the last decade.
Really? If you're going to +1 yourself don't complain about getting negged.
He never whined like a baby after they lost games and blamed the officiating though.
I like this comparison a lot more than the Bo-Izzo comparison that one writer was suggesting. Their careers match up pretty evenly at this point.