Kind of CC: Interesting similarities to Toronto Maple Leafs Situation. Don't click if you're tired of CC!

Submitted by Blue in Yarmouth on

I was watching TSN a couple of nights ago and the hockey panel was having a conversation in regard to the Toronto Maple Leafs. The interviewed a few current and former players about GM Brian Burke and the question was posed to each whether they felt he should continue in that capacity given the past three seasons.

I say there are similarities with our situation because RR is essentially what a GM in professional sports is without the money aspect. He is responsible for not only coaching the players, but also scouting, evaluating and recruiting talent.

During this show, the entire panel and each of the players interviewed agreed that it was too early to tell whether BB was doing a good job and he should be given at least four years to prove himself in Toronto.

In the year prior to BB arriving in Toronto, the leafs were 36-35-11. During BB's time they have gone 34-35-13, 30-38-14 and are currently 12-14-4. As you can see, there has been no improvement to this point and they have actually regressed (in terms of their W/L's) since he took over as GM.

The reason each person had for him continuing as GM was that Toronto were heading in the right direction. They hadn't seen it on paper yet, but they were certain, given another year, you would start to see it in the W/L column as well.

RR has been here for three seasons and during each has shown steady (albeit slower than some would like) improvement. I think even those that aren't crazy about the improvement on the field would agree that he is doing a lot of great things off the field as well (though the haters will cling to the NCAA investigation).

I guess my main point is if we have seen clearly that the team is improving on the field, things are going well off the field, relationships between teammates are as strong as they have ever been and we have every reasonable expectation that things will continue to get better is it too soon to send RR packing?

I think most would agree that it is far easier to build a winning teams when you operate in the pro market. You can make trades, use your minior league system, pick up a free agent etc etc etc.

In college, you pick up a player out of HS and hope that the potential you saw gets realized and that he stays with you for four years. If he doesn't pan out, transfers, leaves early...there are no trades, no free agents you can sign or minor leaguers you can call up. You have to deal with it.

If it is reasonable that BB should have four years to build a winning team in Toronto in a professional sport, how can it be unreasonable for RR to have a fouth year to show what he can do, especially he has shown improvement throughout the course of his contract?

This is a question to the board. I don't want to talk replacements or anything of that nature, just simply if you think three years is enough justify why? If you believe he should be given one more year, justify why?

I realize in hundreds of threads variations of this topic have been discussed, but this is looking directly at a similar situation in professional sports, identifying similarities and questioning if those similarities changes anything.

switch26

December 15th, 2010 at 9:49 AM ^

i feel there are enough of these posts on here, but i want RR another year to see what it could be like with an upper classmen as a QB, and the leadership that it could bring.

 

I would also like to see what it is like with a possible feature back.. i.e if Shaw, Hart, or Toussaint or Hopkins can become an every down back, or a steve slaton type to take the pressure off denard.

 

Not to mention this would open up our ability for bigger plays if we have someone that we can hand the ball off to everytime.

 

I think Dee Hart would be this kind of guy..  I realize he will be only a freshman, but last year the top 2 Backs in the country coming out of HS was Marcus Lattimore, the big back and michael dyer(sp)..  And we all saw how they both helped their teams in different ways tremendously. 

I think Hart is a much better back coming out of HS than dyer was personally, hopefully we will get to see it happen.

jg2112

December 15th, 2010 at 9:52 AM ^

When it comes to the football team at Michigan, the only thing that matters is wins and losses.

If you'd like to look at the great things that RR is doing off the field, that's great. I agree - he's a great guy.

All that stuff is secondary. His primary job is to win games. After three years, he's succeeding at his job 41.6667% of the time.

jg2112

December 15th, 2010 at 10:31 AM ^

If you want to play this game, let's go for it. And I do this as a firm RR supporter.

Tell me when RR has gotten a result in the past 3 years that showed you the team was going to become a power in year 4 of RR's regime.

I'll wait a few minutes.

Because if you want to compare RR with Harbaugh, here's what Harbaugh pulled off to give fans of the Cardinal an indication that his team could take on the powers in his conference:

2007 - Stanford is 3-9, but defeats #1 USC 24-23, at USC

2008 - Stanford is 5-7, beats Oregon State.

2009 - Stanford is 8-5, beats Oregon and USC, scoring over 50 in each game. Also has a Heisman finalist.

What's the signature win for RR over a team that went to a significant bowl game? Wisconsin 2008? Notre Dame 2010? Sorry man, I look at the record and see 1-14 (vs. OSU, MSU, PSU, Wiscy and Iowa).

icefins26

December 15th, 2010 at 10:57 AM ^

Tell me when RR has gotten a result in the past 3 years that showed you the team was going to become a power in year 4 of RR's regime.

A Heisman trophy candidate, one of the best offenses in the nation, almost entirely every major returning starter back on offense and defense, plus incoming contributing freshmen.  In addition, improvement, albeit moderate, has occured in each season.

Look, I'm obviously an RR supporter, however, I do agree with the overall principle of your argument.  I just think that is not the right time for a change.  It took RR nearly 4 years to really get over the 8 win hump at WVU and ended at 11-1, 11-2 and 10-2.

jg2112

December 15th, 2010 at 11:04 AM ^

I'm a RR supporter as well, however, I'm not going to be butt-hurt if he is let go. 2-15 against the top teams on the schedule over three years, as well as 0 wins against teams finishing with 8 or more wins, makes me indifferent.

And for all the good things you wrote in your first paragraph, which I completely agree with........Jim Harbaugh had a better offense than RR this year while replacing a Heisman Trophy finalist, plus, his defense pitched three shutouts this year.

So, my point is that I'll be alright with whoever is coaching here next year, but I'll have 1000 times more confidence that the defense will be better if Harbaugh has his people in place, because I have no confidence, based on past results, that Rodriguez can improve the defense well enough to compete for championships.

icefins26

December 15th, 2010 at 11:07 AM ^

He also has had four full seasons under his belt at Stanford.  Do you honestly think that Harbaugh would walk in here and fix our defense immediatelty?  If he can, God bless him.

As for no confidence in RR's past defenses, he actually fielded some very good defenses at WVU during his last three years.

Mitch Cumstein

December 15th, 2010 at 1:05 PM ^

Do you honestly think that Harbaugh would walk in here and fix our defense immediatelty?
So, you think RR is going to fix our defense immediately? If you really think this, you have your head in the sand. News flash, the defense might be better next year, but it won't be "fixed". We have an easy schedule next year. If you think Harbaugh would come in and win only 3 games like RR did in his first year you're also crazy. This idea that it will take Harbaugh 3 years to get to the point RR is now is just not true.

jg2112

December 15th, 2010 at 10:22 AM ^

Dudeness - if having a first-year QB every year was an issue, RR could have made a different choice for QB in 2010. You can't credit Denard's unbelievable year and then claim having first-year QBs every year was a hindrance. Denard is the reason Michigan went 7-5 and not 4-8 this year.

And the defense has been hashed out over and over again, but acting like RR didn't contribute to the mess on defense (through unfocused recruiting, inability to retain kids on the roster, terrible coaching hires/fires and horrific meddling and tinkering with the defense) is giving him a pass. The worst defense in Michigan's history is Rich Rodriguez's fault. Noone in 2070 is going to look at the 2010 defense and say, "but hey, some dude wrote a Diary at MGo showing why that year's defense had been systematically decimated by Lloyd Carr's recruiting." That just won't happen.

His Dudeness

December 15th, 2010 at 10:40 AM ^

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you really doing this? Really? Are you trying to tell me that 2008 was in any way going to be a winning season, under any coach? Are you honestly doing this? You are starting this debate... AGAIN... ???

I would hate to see brians inbox, because the user gen content is so, so fucking horrible.

"I am a huge RR supporter, but I hate RR and hope he gets fired."

Jesus Christ. This is so fucking old, man. Yea, we get it. You hate RR, but you support him, except you don't. Great, man. Really that is fucking amazing. I love reading that every fucking day from another moron who hopes they will somehow discover some angle that others of us had never thought of before and we will hate RR as much as you do.

This is my only getaway from cube-world of infinite boredom and self loathing. Please for the love of whatever the fuck you believe in, stop clogging this place up with your opinion on the taste of hamburgers. I don't like them, you do. I will forever dislike hamburgers. You forever will enjoy the taste of them. That is wonderful for both of us. Stop trying to make me like hamburgers, please. Please stop.

jg2112

December 15th, 2010 at 10:59 AM ^

Classy.

You must not have been paying attention the past three years that I've been sticking up for Rodriguez on this board. It's gotten quite tiresome, to be honest.

And really, I've argued many, many times on this board that Michigan was one play away in four or five games in 2008 from having a winning season. Had Threet started v. Utah, had MICH gotten that field goal versus Toledo, had MICH not gone to the stack against Purdue, had that INT by Warren been correctly counted v. NW. There, alone, are four very easy things I've identified that turn 3-9 into 7-5.

Two of them are just flukes, the other two were decisions made by RR. Don't act like 2008 was beyond his control. The situations on defense (the mutiny by the players, the emasculating of Shafer) were not exactly out of RR's hands.

CompleteLunacy

December 15th, 2010 at 12:51 PM ^

3 years (ONLY 3 years...not really that much time in the grand scheme of things), marked improvement on offense, improved record each year...that's not all that tiresome to me. We can argue all day long whether the improvements on offense outweigh the problems on defense...but it's not all that tiresome, given that the defense is not wholly RR's fault especially back in 2008 and 2009.

If you want to play the "one play here or there" game, then I'll say that what if Avery makes that tackle on 3rd and long against Iowa? Michigan drives for the tie, and in OT anything can happen. What if Denard didn't act like a first year starter against MSU and thrown the TDs instead of redzone interceptions (and believe me, those receivers were open)? Game would have been much closer and easily could have been a win. What if MIchigan's defense could stop PSU one or two more times in the 2nd half? That game could have been a win too. How much of that is on RR? Some, but not all of it. 

We weren't that far away from 9 wins this year. Just like we weren't that far away from 7 wins last year or 5-7 wins in 2008.

BongoMan

December 15th, 2010 at 7:38 PM ^

How about Carr KICKSTHEDAMNEXTRAPOINT in the third quarter against Appalachian State?

How about Crable puts his hands up or doesn't put his head down?

Or, what if Braylon doesn't go Rambo on MSU? Does it turn into 2,000 plus days of not beating our other rival?

What if Texas misses that field goal? Do we go on to play in the 2006 Rose Bowl?

What if Henne-Manningham doesn't go down and PSU is a perennial power with a recent MNC title?

There's so many different places our program could be right now, some worse, some better. Unfortunately, this is where we are.

Also, when you need a field goal to beat a Toledo team that finished 3-9, you know you're bad. I'd say that's pretty "out of control."

mackbru

December 16th, 2010 at 12:03 AM ^

Yes. It would have been a winning season. Not a great one. Ryan Mallett. Justin Boren. Arrington said he would have stayed. Guaranteed they'd at least have broken .500. How you think this unit would not have been good for 7 wins or so is what's nuts.
<br>
<br>M sucked so badly because of the square peg issue. Period.

jg2112

December 15th, 2010 at 10:17 AM ^

I wasn't arguing whether RR warranted a fourth year.

I could care less at this point. Whoever is coaching Michigan will win 10 games next year.

The operative question is whether Jim Harbaugh wants to coach Michigan in 2011. If he does, RR will be gone.

mrider

December 15th, 2010 at 10:03 AM ^

I like this analogy, but as a leafs fan I can tell you I wouldn't mind if Burke got the scissors. He's like Colangelo and the Raptors IMO, big name no game. 

Blue in Yarmouth

December 15th, 2010 at 10:15 AM ^

I am a Raptors fan, but not a leafs fan which may be why I would give BB a little more rope. I actually like the guy (or at least how he comes across) and think he is on the right track and has made some good moves (Phanuef, Giguere, Kessel etc). Again though, I am not a leafs fans so I would have more tolerance for taking time to build the team.

mrider

December 15th, 2010 at 1:20 PM ^

He has made some good moves, but he is so damn stubborn. Everyone in the whole world knows we need another scorer, but instead he goes out and signs like 10 tough guys. I do love his mentality, fuck you guys my way or the highway. But we need some scorers and it's killing me. Wings fans don't know how good they got it.

 

BTW love that someone agrees with me on Colangelo, most of my friends are blinded by his reputation. 

clarkiefromcanada

December 15th, 2010 at 6:43 PM ^

You think the detractors who said "Lloyd left the cupboard bare" were loud you should look at the roster Burke inherited. Ferguson's incompetence was astounding but the Ontario Teacher's Pension fund was making piles of money and the building was, and always will be, full so who cared, right? Burke will slowly acquire the talent and/or make the occasional genius move (Sutter must still be wondering how he gave up Dion Phaneuf and Keith Aulie for Ian freaking White, Jamal Mayers and a bag of pucks). The depths of crap that team was in long before Burke showed up is still a problem to this day. 

You're right that Wings fans don't know how good they have it: cheap seats, very easy to score tickets to pretty much any game, good coaching...

I think Burke will get them there but it will take 2 more years. Fortunately for him, as long as the money rolls in there is only limited will among Toronto management to do anything...hmmm...that seems oddly familiar somehow...