Home and Home - or Neutral Site games - conference play - Georgia v Florida
There is an interesting article on ESPN (not paywalled) that provides Kirby Smart's perspective on the Florida v Georgia game being played in Jacksonville - a neutral site. I didn't realize that this matchup has been played there since 1933 - so, it's more than a "recent" location. I believe the game is committed to be played in Jacksonville through next season (2023).
Kirby Smart advocates changing this matchup to "home and home" with on campus games. The primary reason Kirby cites is money, and the second reason is recruiting. Based on the article, a team cannot "recruit" a prospect at a neutral site game. So, the World's Biggest Cocktail party turns into a game where a team can provide tickets to a prospect, but - cannot visit with them during their trip.
Here's the link to the full article: Kirby Smart: Recruiting concerns factor in Florida-Georgia neutral-site debate
I'm an advocate of "home and home" - in fact it's difficult to fathom a neutral site location for a conference game. Regarding Michigan's future OOC schedule - which includes Texas and Oklahoma - I'm glad those are scheduled as on campus, "home and home" series.
What do you think?
October 25th, 2022 at 12:24 PM ^
In general, I'm in favor of on-campus sites. But I like to stick with tradition where it exists. I wouldn't start a new series at a neutral site, but for something like Florida-Georgia, I'd keep it going. Georgia's recruiting doesn't exactly seem to be suffering, anyway.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:28 PM ^
Your second statement is the problem.
Imagine some billionaire buys the rights to move Michigan v. Ohio State to Cleveland. And it stinks. And the term of the contract is 30 years.
At the end of 30 years, people want to "stick with tradition where it exists."
October 25th, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
Well, that would be one set of conditions, but it isn't these. I'm not sure I have an opinion, but it sure would be interesting to hear that of people who have participated. My wife is one of those. The "world's largest outdoor cocktail party" is, as I understand it, a frat and sorority dominated event, an occasion for dressing up and a certain degree of lower-key ribbing than the ugliness engendered by some rivalry games. And it's played in a spot equidistant, more or less, from the two schools. There's some kind of oar, made from an Okefenokee cypress, that the winner keeps. Again--this is my minimal input--but the point is that the game has its lore and traditions; some people will be invested, including vendors and the city of Jax, which probably makes some scratch off of the event.
The desire to be able to talk to recruits doesn't seem to me, by itself, to be an incredible reason to give it up.
October 25th, 2022 at 5:27 PM ^
The Red River Shootout is equidistant between the two schools.
The World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party, on the other hand, is emphatically not. Jacksonville is much closer to Gainesville than it is Athens. Like, an hour and a half vs. 5 and a half (!) hours.
That said, Jacksonville is relatively neutral turf -- there are a lot of Georgia fans there. It's sort of like Toledo.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:33 PM ^
No. Sticking with tradition means the Game doesn't get moved off-campus in the first place. It doesn't mean breaking tradition and then accepting the new normal.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:13 PM ^
Imagine some billionaire buys the rights to move Michigan v. Ohio State to Cleveland. And it stinks. And the term of the contract is 30 years.
This is quite the hypothetical, and not a particularly compelling argument against keeping the 90-year-old tradition of the World's Largest Cocktail Party--which decidedly does not stink--as is.
October 25th, 2022 at 3:09 PM ^
Have you ever heard an upswell of resistance to holding the World's Largest Outdoor Cocktail Party in Jacksonville? I have not. Same for the Red River Shootout, they are just a couple of traditions woven into the fabric and they weren't poorly thought out bad ideas in the olden days when the system was set up.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:31 PM ^
Keep tradition going? Tradition is that college football is about the students of the college. They're the ones who originally created football clubs. Neutral site games are an abomination. Maybe for a non-conference game (but even then it takes away from the students' ability to attend, which should be the main concern).
October 25th, 2022 at 12:56 PM ^
Don't think that's a problem in this case.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:57 PM ^
Have you ever watched the Red River Shootout between Texas and Oklahoma? It's played at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas which is almost equidistant between the two schools. Half the stadium is burnt orange, the other half Sooner red. Why is this an abomination?
October 25th, 2022 at 2:32 PM ^
Because the atmosphere would be infinitely better at either on-campus stadium each year?
October 25th, 2022 at 2:48 PM ^
That argument probably holds for most neutral-site games, but I'm not sure about the Red River Rivalry. Making the road trip to the Cotton Bowl for that one game each year is just something you do if you're a fan of those two schools.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:52 PM ^
Concerning the Red River Shootout, I don't think so. This game is played in the middle of the Texas State Fair and the atmosphere is beyond electric every single year, no matter how good each team may - or may not - be. This is the one off-campus game that I'd argue is every bit as good as any on-campus game each year, and this include the World's Biggest Cocktail Party.
October 25th, 2022 at 4:04 PM ^
Have you ever been to DKR? It really wouldn't be.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:54 PM ^
Exactly!
I don't think Buy really thinks much about his "stream of consciousness" posts before he hits Send!
October 25th, 2022 at 3:27 PM ^
So is a bowl game. As long as schools are willing to bus kids their for free and give them the same number of tickets as normal for the same cost, and sit them together in a student section. It's their school. It's their time. I just don't like when a huge home and home rivalry isn't about the students.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:28 PM ^
The Red River Rivalry is an abomination? Really?
There is a big difference between Jerry Jones buying games for Jerryworld and a game that has been played at the state fair since 1932.
October 25th, 2022 at 5:56 PM ^
The tradition of Florida-Georgia, though, is to play in Jacksonville. There have been 11 games played on campus (all before 1933) and 88 played in Jacksonville. I'd say the Jacksonville tradition is very well-established.
As for the poor, poor students, my understanding from UF alums I know is that they love the WLOCP and wouldn't want it to change.
So neither of your arguments holds even a thimble-full of water.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:32 PM ^
jm,
Agreed. And, there's one thought I meant to share in the thread, which I should have included in my original comment / post.
They are talking about "negotiating" the future status of the Florida v Georgia series.
My thought is - they could develop a three year cycle / schedule. That cycle could easily be - 1) Athens, 2) Gainesville, and 3) Jacksonville. Rinse and repeat.
And, your comment about recruiting - I completely agree with as well. The last year (since 2015) when Georgia didn't have the sixth (or better) Total Team Talent according to 247 is: oh, there isn't one - Georgia's had top six talent as long as 247 data is available. And, over the past five years, their talent has been "top three" in every season.
That neutral site game really has impacted their recruiting a great deal... as you pointed out.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^
Play the games on campus. All of them. The games are supposed to be for the students, not for corporate lackeys and tourism boards.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:04 PM ^
Mostly agree, slightly disagree.
No question that campus stadiums are generally a better environment. But if games are “supposed to be for the students,” why do many stadiums have seating capacities that are 2x (or more) the size of the student body?
Of course games are, to some degree, for people beyond the school/campus. They’re also for the region/state. So, to that end, it’s reasonable to play a few in neutral-site spots that make sense, like Red River and the Cocktail Party.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:28 PM ^
Spoken like someone who's never been to the Georgia / Florida game...
I'm all for campus games but to say that the WLOCP isn't for the students is just ignorant of what goes on and how that game works. It is the highlight of many students year.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:42 PM ^
Do you know the history of this series? Florida and Georgia have played in Jacksonville for 90 years. That’s their thing, not playing the game on campus.
I would agree that series that are established as home/home should stay that way, but this one is different. Same with the Red River Rivalry.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:11 PM ^
While my fan, sentimental, and nostalgic side agrees with you...I also have to ask, do the majority of students care as much now?
I often see large portions of student sections empty. Not just at Michigan games, but across college football. If the point is to have fun with your friends at the game...does the wifi access, the quality of schedule, etc. really matter?
The real issue is student athletes have been almost completely isolated from the rest of the campus population. They have their own dorms, eating facilities, work out areas, and now even classes. Many schools have made courses for athletes 100% remote learning so the mass student body isn't even interacting with athletes in class anymore.
Going to games had a different feel when you actually knew the people on the team.
It's getting harder and harder to say college sports is about the college.
And yes, I realize there never has been a glory age of college sports which didn't have it's issues.
October 25th, 2022 at 3:01 PM ^
I don't know. Most athletes were never really Joe College types in the first place. I think student attendance is declining around the country for the same reasons that non-student attendance is:
1) Rising ticket prices. People are being priced out of the market.
2) A worsening in-game experience - too many media timeouts.
3) An improved at-home experience. Every game is on TV and if you're a student you probably have somewhere to go with a big screen to watch the game, and you can leave or change the channel if it's boring.
October 25th, 2022 at 3:14 PM ^
I'm guessing Michigan's student section is not as empty as it looks, the students are just pressing down to better seats. Lord knows I never sat in my student section seats until my senior year. You can always fit a few more bodies per row down in the lower area.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:15 PM ^
All FBS games should be played at Jerry World. They could be scheduled around the clock, seven days a week like at most local hockey rinks and reduced to around 2 hours by banning commercials. So, some weeks we might get FOX noon kickoff, other weeks BTN at 3 a.m. on a Wednesday. What could be better?
October 25th, 2022 at 2:17 PM ^
There's a difference between a bowl game or a neutral site game miles away from one or both of the schools, and the Cocktail Party. 99% of the time I prefer games on campus - including in the playoff - and students are the most important stakeholders in college football who aren't on the field, in my mind. But college football is about community - Texas and Oklahoma celebrating a state fair together is a great tradition, especially since it dates to before Texas had pro teams and was much more like Oklahoma than it is now. Likewise, Jacksonville only recently became an NFL city, and that remains the city's only pro team. And while the Red River Rivalry has gotten more corporate, part bowl game part state fair, my understanding is that the Cocktail Party is NOT that way.
Both Georgia and Florida are now big states with big cities and a plethora of big-league teams - a different situation from 1933. Personally, I'd let the students decide in some way. But I don't think of this game as a bowl game.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^
Or just change the stupid rules and let them host recruits. The NCAA needs to completely overhaul its ideals and methods.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:15 PM ^
Yeah because spending a weekend in Jacksonville prepares athletes for what four years on campus in Athens is like. No differences whatsoever.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:32 PM ^
They spend very little time doing normal on campus things during an official visit. The majority is spent getting to know people checking out the athletic facilities the players. They’re close to the team. Since being a D1 football player will occupy 70% of their time they’re going to mostly care about what they will do as a football player and the people surrounding them. So yeah being around the team at a neutral site game would in fact give them insight to what life is like.
October 25th, 2022 at 1:44 PM ^
How do they check out the athletic facilities in Athens when the game is in Jacksonville?
And what if they just want to see the campus?
This is one NCAA rule that makes sense.
October 25th, 2022 at 2:17 PM ^
I mean, these kids to have agency. If they want to check out the athletic facilities in Athens and go see the campus, they can plan a recruiting visit...in Athens. The fact that Jacksonville is not Athens is not a good reason to *ban* recruiting trips in Jacksonville.
October 25th, 2022 at 3:06 PM ^
Actually it’s a very good reason. An official visit is just that, a visit to campus. It’s not a visit to the out-of-town hotel where they’re staying.
Think about how this could be abused. Should Michigan play in Las Vegas and host recruits there? The recruiting arms race is insane enough as it is. Eliminating geographic boundaries would be opening Pandora’s box.
October 25th, 2022 at 3:18 PM ^
Okay, but that's a very different argument than "what if the kids just want to visit campus?" And again, *a kid can take an official visit to campus if they want.*
Your new argument isn't any more compelling. Concerns about the "arms race" if Michigan schedules a neutral-site game in Vegas ring a little hollow when these kids are now allowed to be paid via NIL (as they should be). Quinn Ewers received a million-dollar deal before ever taking a college snap. I'm not sure what other "Pandora's Box" is going to be opened by allowing teams to recruit at neutral sites.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:26 PM ^
As far as the Big 2 college sports goes, neutral sites makes sense only for preseason Hoops tournaments and football/hoops postseason games/tournaments. Otherwise you're losing out on revenue (for the school and town), recruiting, and an overall better game environment.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:54 PM ^
I feel the same way about hockey. Hate the M v. MSU games at JLA now LCA.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:26 PM ^
I think for those games where they’ve always done it like UGA-FLA, Army-Navy, UT-OU, it’s a pretty cool thing; aside from those types of games, neutral site games suck. With so much of the old CFB rivalries & traditions we love being removed or their importance diminished with conference realignment/CFP/etc, I’m all for preserving traditions.
I believe both UGA and Florida get like a $4M payout from the city of Jacksonville for the game each year so it’s not like they’re hurting for money with this game. And Kirby isn’t really struggling to recruit…
October 25th, 2022 at 12:35 PM ^
It does kinda suck though to play at Georgia for 4 years and never get to visit the Swamp right?
October 25th, 2022 at 12:47 PM ^
UGa - Florida, seems like they could switch to a three cycle of home, home and neutral site.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:48 PM ^
Would you be alright with this for Michigan - Ohio State, adding Cleveland into the rotation?
October 25th, 2022 at 1:04 PM ^
your question doesn't make sense and is only marginally related.
M v AN ohio state has historically been played as a home and home, so moving it would be silly.
UGA v UF has historically been played in Jax so moving it goes against a 90 year "tradition"
its not an equivalent comparison
October 25th, 2022 at 2:17 PM ^
No, but I would with Ford Field. Just sayin'.
October 25th, 2022 at 5:33 PM ^
Good God, that may be the worst idea I've ever heard in my entire life.
You want to put The Game into an NFL stadium with half the capacity of the Big House? And then sell half of the tickets to OSU fans?! Just because it's in Detroit?
Even if you only did it one year out of three -- thanks, but absolutely no thanks.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:39 PM ^
IIRC, Texas and Oklahoma alternate being the home team in the Red River Rivalry in Dallas. The home team is allowed to host recruits, while the away team cannot.
I did not read the ESPN article, but I would think UGA and Florida could have the same arrangement.
At least with the Texas-OU game the site is about equidistant from both schools. Jacksonville is 5 1/2 hours from UGA while only 2 hours from UFL. I would not be happy if one of my home games every other year were that far away.
October 25th, 2022 at 12:50 PM ^
The Iron Bowl used to be played in Birmingham for many years. Auburn eventually petitioned to have their home games against Bama at their own stadium, which had a higher capacity now through additions and they started in 1989.
I’m sure if either Florida and Georgia ever wanted to do something like that, they would be able.
October 25th, 2022 at 3:07 PM ^
I was working, and living in Huntsville, AL when this happened. Bama fans were not happy about this. Auburn fans retorted with:
Our grass, your ass!
October 25th, 2022 at 12:43 PM ^
I'm sure a good chunk of that $4M goes to Kirby's recruiting 'department'. And I have no doubts whatsoever that despite he and his staff not being able to communicate with recruits 'according to NCAA rules', his message is displayed loud and clear by UGA boosters.
Any complaints from Kirby Smart about recruiting are met by deaf ears and gigantic eye rolls. I'll care right around the time an FOIA request gets answered by UGA's legal staff...
October 25th, 2022 at 12:39 PM ^
On campus 💯