Future Sites for NCAA Men's hoops and hockey
With the NCAA tournaments reaching their respective "fours" - Final and Frozen, and associated discussions about locations - I took at look at the "nearest" locations in the coming years. The point of reference is Ann Arbor.
Men's hoops (not including the "First Four")
2024: First / Second Rounds - Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, and Omaha - with a Regional in Detroit (LCA).
2025: First / Second Rounds - Cleveland and Milwaukee - with a Regional in Indy.
2026: First / Second Rounds - St Louis - with a Regional in Chicago, and Final Four in Indy
2027: No info on first / second rounds or regionals - but, the Final Four will be in Detroit. (The Spartans are the host school for the Detroit Final Four - but, why isn't that shared between several Michigan schools?)
Men's hockey:
2024: Regional: St Louis and Sioux Falls, Frozen Four - St. Paul, Minnesota
2025: Regionals: Toledo and Fargo, Frozen Four - St. Louis
2026: Regional: Sioux Falls, Frozen Four - Las Vegas.
Obviously, I hope Michigan places in a team into every "nearby" tourney - with enough success to reach "the four", and - in the case of basketball - the Regional / Sweet Sixteen.
Which locations would you travel to, if Michigan was playing? For me (being in the Chicago area) - Chicago and Milwaukee are "no brainers", and Indy is a "pretty likely". Detroit for a hoops regional or Final Four would be fantastic.
Enjoy...
March 27th, 2023 at 10:00 AM ^
it'll be a real shame if they don't reschedule the frozen four that was supposed to be in Detroit during the covid year
March 27th, 2023 at 10:04 AM ^
I don't know the economics of hosting regionals, but Michigan should really be bidding Toledo or GR every season. While the current system is what it is, we should try our best to minimize the chances we play a de facto road game like we did last night
March 27th, 2023 at 10:07 AM ^
Should also collaborate with ND/Miami/OSU (ugh) to try for Cleveland/Cinci/Indy/Chicago
March 27th, 2023 at 10:16 AM ^
I always figured the big cities with NHL rinks won't care about hosting a dinky regional, but Cinci, Indy(do they have an AHL-ish rink?), Ft Wayne, Toledo are all regionals we could hopefully make happen. Not sure how joint bidding works and what happens if say two joint bidders make the tournament
March 27th, 2023 at 11:38 AM ^
Indianapolis has the Indy Fuel (ECHL). They play at Indiana Farmers Coliseum (fka Pepsi Coliseum) at the Indiana State Fairgrounds, which is also the home arena for IUPUI basketball and former home arena of the Indy Ice. The Coliseum seats 6,500 according to Wikipedia.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:20 AM ^
Last night was so bizarre. If you don't want schools like Michigan to host regionals, fair enough -- but how can you have a regional in the home state of a school that's the second seed, essentially providing them with the home crowd atmosphere you were trying to avoid in the first place?
At the very least the rule should be that if you're a school in a state where the regional is being played, and you're not the first seed in that region, then they'll move you to a different regional. Seems bass-ackwards to allow the second seeds a home atmosphere just so you can avoid giving the first seeds a home atmosphere.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
Seth (among others) had a good writeup recently, I think in a comment to one of the front page hockey posts, about how the small schools have pushed for things like this, the low scholarship limits, etc. Really frustrating.
In terms of us hosting, I agree, we should be bidding Toledo. It's much closer than Grand Rapids, has a great rink and Toledo is very much a hockey town. But the fact that even when we did bid, we bid Grand Rapids makes me wonder if it's some kind of state thing, that we're not going to bid a site in a different state (Toledo has always been bid by BG). Still though, it's strange that we haven't bothered to bid in 10 years. Allentown keeps hosting because PSU seems to be the only school in this area of the country that actually submits bids (North Dakota and Minnesota schools frequently bid, but that's not particularly helpful to us since it's damn near as close of a drive from Ann Arbor to the Northeast sites, if not closer)...
March 27th, 2023 at 10:49 AM ^
How well do you think attendance would be if Detroit / LCA hosted - but, neither Michigan nor MSU was seeded in that regional?
I think any other Michigan schools - e.g. Western Michigan or Michigan Tech - would draw well. But, would they fill the LCA?
March 27th, 2023 at 12:26 PM ^
Tampa will be a sell out, or pretty close to it, and no teams within 1000 miles of Floriduh are involved. I don't think LCA will have any trouble selling out a Frozen Four. Especially because Michigan is always a legit competitor...
I think he was asking about attendance at a Little Caesars hosted regional, not Frozen Four. I agree, if neither M or MSU were in the regional, attendance would probably be horrible. Which isn't any different from most of the regionals, again probably why NHL arenas aren't bid for regionals.
It was suggested on here a few days ago that the one time we hosted (2013, Van Andel in GR) was such a cluster that we haven't bid since. We didn't make the tournament that year (broke a 20-some year streak, so who would have figured), though we nearly snatched the autobid, making it all the way to the CCHA championship game (as a 7 seed I think) before finally losing to top seeded ND. Plus that year BG hosted in Toledo, so even if we did make it, we would have been in GR instead of Toledo which is about half the distance from A2.
But I'm not sure why we haven't bid since. Unless Van Andel said f*** you, we're not doing this again after 2013 bombed, and we don't have any other really feasible sites to bid with? The more I think about it, I have to think there's a reason we're not bidding Toledo (like we're prevented from bidding them because it's out of state). If Toledo allows BG to bid them, they'd absolutely allow us (much bigger fanbase/draw). I dunno...
March 27th, 2023 at 11:00 AM ^
The overarching theme is that the majority of D1 hockey is actually D2-D3 schools and they run their programs like it generally because they have to since lots of their combined athletic department revenue in a year is probably less than what Michigan makes alone. So coming from that perspective I think you have most of D1 hockey being opposed to 1 seed regionals because they'll never get to do that and the variance of neutral site favors them. The medium schools hate campus regionals where they can't host because of Yost 96, 98, and 02.
The neutral site regional really only screws the major schools in the midwest (M, MSU, OSU, ND) and maybe far west (Denver, CC) as everyone else can comfortably rely on a "neutral" site regional to be in their backyard. You'll get 2-3 in New England and generally 1 in the Minnesota region (MSP, Fargo, Green Bay, etc) so I think most of D1 is reasonably happy with the status quo which is why it never changes
It basically ends up 'bass-ackwards' as you say because the NCAA needs to boost attendance to make neutral site regionals viable (or else these AHL rinks won't bid) so you end up with goofy stuff like Penn State hosting as a 2 seed or Minnesota as the 1 getting two other Minnesota teams in their regional.
March 27th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^
, but Michigan should really be bidding Toledo or GR every season.
That would require Warde to do his job.
March 27th, 2023 at 12:43 PM ^
I would love to see Kalamazoo on that list! Play at wings stadium.
Great idea...
I'd say Wings is too small but then given regionals attendance...
Yep.
Allentown is 8,000 including the empty seats.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:15 AM ^
Screw it- if they are going to do the FF in Tampa, how about Phoenix? ASU can host...!
March 27th, 2023 at 10:46 AM ^
92 - the NCAA is planning to have a Frozen Four in Vegas in 2026. The amount of hockey out there - in the desert - must be greater than I assumed.
March 27th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
Been to Vegas several times during NHL season/mostly November the last few years - visiting team jerseys everywhere. Every visiting team's fans make a weekend of it there. Regardless of the teams/fan bases playing in the FF - that April weekend in Vegas (80-90 degree highs and open pool season) will be packed. Vegas has found that there are ancillary/adjacent benefits to hosting games that wouldn't necessarily fill a stadium with home fans only (NCAA bball November, Knights, Raiders, etc).
March 27th, 2023 at 11:38 AM ^
TX - I agree - Vegas is Vegas - and, people will attend because of the "non sporting" activities available to them while they are visiting an event - like the Frozen / Final Four.
I wasn't aware of how well Vegas draws out of town fans for Hockey. And, I'd assume that football is the same.
I hadn't thought about Vegas in April (I usually visit in January) - but, if the weather is that warm - and, the pools are open - there will be good demand and attendance.
March 27th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
Frozen Four is fine wherever. It almost always has a good atmosphere including previous times it's been in Tampa.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:21 AM ^
Don't think I realized the Final Four had a host school. Does it actually mean anything? In hockey, yes hosting a regional is meaningful, because you're guaranteed to be slotted there if you make the tournament. For the Final Four, seems like it's just a prestige thing...
March 27th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
With Seven D-1 Hockey Programs in the State of Michigan, it is pretty wild that there isn't a regional each year in either Michigan, Indiana, or Ohio.
Who is even considered the Host University for this year's Frozen Four
March 27th, 2023 at 10:30 AM ^
Wisconsin is this years host.
in a few years when the frozen four is in STL, Vermont (?!?) is the host.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:32 AM ^
Similar to my comment about the Final Four, is there even a Frozen Four host? And if so, what purpose does it actually serve?
Yeah, I agree it's baffling how few schools bother to submit bids. Even for schools with strong hockey programs. If this was basketball you know schools would be lining out the door to try and host...
March 27th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
Q - the "host" for this year's Frozen Four in Tampa is - the University of Wisconsin.
I'm just laughing at the thought about football recruiting. Michigan, and other schools, can't participate in, or host, a camp that's "so many miles" from their campus. However, it looks like the University of Wisconsin (Madison) can host an NCAA Championship which is over 1300 miles from their campus.
For what it's worth - Vermont is hosting the St. Louis Frozen Four in 2025, and North Dakota is hosting the Las Vegas Frozen Four in 2026.
This makes perfect sense to me - regarding how the NCAA does things.
I agree with your point that a regional should be in the Michigan / Indiana / Ohio area annually. My thought with this is - one regional in the "west" which could be Colorado, Minnesota, North Dakota. Another regional in the Midwest (Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin), and the other two - northeast and mid-atlantic.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
Duplicate post - deleted. My apologies.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
I kinda feel like Michigan is due for a down-ish hockey season after a few really good ones with young one or two-and-done players, and I'll be disappointed if that means that they miss an FF scheduled in St. Paul.
OTOH if the freshmen all come back and we can keep a guy like Duke for a third year and bring in more good recruits...
The key is consistent recruiting. Both Beilein and Juwan have had similar problems, i.e. guys leaving (often earlier than expected), and not having players in place (either recruits or older players) ready to step in and fill the void.
Beilein's problem was really the unexpected departures. No one saw Burke and Stauskus being two and done lottery players, nor THJr being a three and done (though he would have graduated by the 2014-15 season when the problem really started to manifest); McGary and GRIII were less surprising given their recruiting profiles, but still didn't help. Beilein didn't bring in enough high end talent to avoid the drop off, and the blue chip recruits he did get either took most of their careers to really start making an impact (Walton, Irvin), or didn't pan out at all (Chatman). (LaVert missing most of his last two years with injury also hurt, though it's not like the team was setting the world on fire even when he was healthy) Thus seasons of Final Four and Elite Eight were followed by missing the tournament, making it via the play-in game, and being squarely on the bubble before getting hot and winning the BTT.
Juwan is a little different. Houstan and Diabate were definitely thought to have one and done potential when they were recruited, so it's not the same as Burke and Stauskus blowing up out of nowhere. The disappointment of them declaring came more from the lack of impact they had here, but before the season it was definitely something people should have expected. But Juwan hasn't followed that big class with similar recruits, so we had a hole this year and still have holes in the roster that it's unclear how they'll be filled.
Hockey is more in the Juwan mold. We know these high end picks are only going to be here a year or two. So we either need to keep recruiting them to keep up, or switch to more of development model (I think the recruiting is more likely). What kills you is trying to go back and forth. You can't go from a team built on young, high end talent to a junior and senior led, experienced team without a few bumpy years in between.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:41 AM ^
Came home from Allentown last night and watched the replay — was impressed with the number of Michigan fans in attendance and how much celebrating I saw/heard after the game winner. Outnumbered, obviously, but quite an impressive showing in what amounted to a road game.
March 27th, 2023 at 10:45 AM ^
Rob, I hope you enjoyed the trip. I watched on tv - and, though I could hear Michigan fans and the hockey band on occasion - the sounds of "We are Penn State", etc. - couldn't be missed.
I'd assume the ratio of Penn State fans to Michigan fans was three or four to one.
Any other takeaways from the game(s) in Allentown?
March 27th, 2023 at 11:57 AM ^
March 27th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^
(Apologies for lack of formatting, posting from mobile)
In my experience, the Tech fans are some of the most dedicated fans anywhere in College Hockey, and very knowledgeable about the game too. If they're not playing UM, I'll always be happy to root for MTU.
I drove to Cincinnati for the game against Notre Dame in 2016. Miami (NTM) was the host. Nobody was there.
101 - in 2012 my son and I went to the Regional in Green Bay, Wisconsin. And, the attendance sounded similar to the game you referenced. There was "no crowd" - but, sitting on the glass was enjoyable.
Detroit, Toledo, and Vegas