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wtka roundtable
2022-23 purdue

WTKA Roundtable 1/26/2023: Coach Craig Ross Comment Count

Seth January 26th, 2023 at 11:09 AM

Things discussed:

  • What are we looking for in a new QB coach? Brian: Harbaugh can be himself, need a recruiter. Seth: Shoot your shot because a superb OC/QB candidate, see if you can steal an arguably #1 person because they get a chance to run this machine. If you can't do that, grab Partridge and move Jay to QBs. Floor is still good, ceiling worth exploring.
  • Jay Harbaugh Appreciation Hour: Funny how he's so much more like his uncle than his dad.
  • Michigan on the bubble: Teams there are like Pitt, which we beat! Zero Quad 1 victories, lost their shot to make a run when Jett went down.
  • Probably lost a chance to bring Jett back last year because he's looking like a lottery pick now.
  • How do they get off the treadmill? They've recruited some guys, need to develop their guards.
  • Hunter talk: Settling for 2PJs because he gets hacked like crazy, doesn't want to bully his way in, and because our Gs aren't able to get the ball to him down low.
  • Purdue? Plausible, more plausible if they had Jett.
  • During the break Craig makes an insane case that we should just not talk about ever again.
  • Portal talk? Football this year was a bit of an outlier because Stanford collapsed and Michigan was in the perfect position to do something about it.
  • Next year? Give Llewellin the option to return, MAAAAAYBE get Jett back? Gotta hit the portal for wings anyways. Might also get development from Khayat, and a big jump from Bufkin. Just not rebuilding your backcourt every year would be a way off the treadmill.
  • Long term: Guards matter. Great teams have continuity and then add a difference-maker. If Howard recruited his point guard when he came here, they'd be so much better right now. If they held onto DeJulius they'd be fine too. Who'd they get? Nobody in 2019, Zeb Jackson in 2020.

[Hit the JUMP for the player, and video and stuff]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Segment two is here. You can watch the video here:

The Usual Links:

Nobody that anybody takes seriously got it right.

Comments

KRK

January 26th, 2023 at 11:50 AM ^

Brian mentioned Harbaugh can coach the QBs, but prior to Weiss we've not seen much development out of the QBs during the entire JH tenure.  We've basically seen regression and transfers.  I'm not sure having Harbaugh coach the QBs is somehow a guarantee that our QBs will get better.

Joined: 07/17/2008

MGoPoints: 5614

KRK

January 26th, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^

Yeah, and Rudock was a one-season improvement from a 5th year guy.  Who had been in an Iowa offense.  So I'm not sure how much was Harbaugh and how much was a guy who had been held back at Iowa.

Speight is always a what-if, because those injuries were gnarly.  But the rest of the list is not good. Milton, Shea, McCaffrey, Peters, Malzone, Cade.  It may not be fair to put Cade on that list but he didn't improve much and then transferred.

Joined: 07/17/2008

MGoPoints: 5614

jmblue

January 26th, 2023 at 12:59 PM ^

Shea is the glaring example of a guy not getting better.  Whether that was due to his injury, coaching, or a lack of offseason prep, is anyone's guess.  

For the rest, it's hard to say how well we did or didn't develop them, since they essentially all left after one season of seeing the field (which was often just a few games).

Overall, I'd say we had good QB play in 2015, '16, '18, '21 and '22 and subpar play in '17, '19 and '20.

Joined: 11/07/2008

MGoPoints: 102861

KRK

January 26th, 2023 at 1:45 PM ^

I think you're proving my point.  Guys transferred because they couldn't play (they didn't improve in a lot of cases) and then the guys that stayed never got better.  So we had average-at-best QB play for a good 4-5 year stretch.

Did Cade improve much?  He looked the same or worse this season than he did in 2021.  He didn't get drastically better throughout the 2021 season.  He was a good QB, he never got better than good.  

Malzone was a 4* recruit.  He wasn't some flier.  Then he left.  My point was about both a lack of improvement and transfers and Malzone transferred.  

Joined: 07/17/2008

MGoPoints: 5614

jdraman

January 26th, 2023 at 12:44 PM ^

Caleb Houstan couldn't shoot? A player who shot nearly 36% from 3pt as a college freshman couldn't shoot? Yeah ok. The kid actually hit threes at a good clip. Houstan way underperformed his recruiting ranking that can't be denied, but the level of criticism he receives from many here is out of order. Especially when Diabate equally underperformed his recruiting ranking but somehow escapes loud and hyperbolic criticism.

Meanwhile, Craig and Sam constantly talk about how Kobe Bufkin has beautiful shooting mechanics and is going to put it all together, yet Bufkin continues to shoot sub-30% from 3pt. Not the best example to use to prop up someone's basketball smarts. 

Joined: 10/23/2019

MGoPoints: 12122

ShadowStorm33

January 26th, 2023 at 12:21 PM ^

Completely forgot about DeJulius. His stat lines make me sad :(

SEASON  TEAM  GP  GS  MIN    FG%    3P%    FT%    OR    DR    REB    AST    STL    TO    PTS
2021-22    CIN    33    33    28.6    40.9    29.7    82.4    0.4    2.4    2.8    2.6    0.7    1.6    14.5
2022-23    CIN    21    21    30.6    44.0    38.6    83.6    0.2    1.8    2.0    4.2    1.0    1.7    14.5

 

Joined: 07/22/2008

MGoPoints: 23070

AC1997

January 26th, 2023 at 5:42 PM ^

See below....DDJ has NOT been good at Cincy until this year.  He's not really a PG and can't shoot.  He was a 27% shooter the past two years and averages around half the assists Mike Smith did.  He's also not a good defender.  He couldn't get off the bench for Beilein or Juwan.....but he's the answer?  

Sure, having veteran guards is always nice and DDJ would have been a great bench guy to support Smith/Eli or be an alternative to Jones last year.  But in terms of which guards I'd want to use roster spots on the past two years, I'd take everyone else on our rosters ahead of DDJ except Frankie.  

 

Joined: 09/19/2008

MGoPoints: 13821

VintageRandy

January 26th, 2023 at 12:24 PM ^

Thinking out loud here: is QB development even that important anymore? Due to the proliferation of private QB coaches and summer camps, QB recruits are getting to college more polished than ever before, especially those in the 5* range. Is it more important to focus your energy on recruiting those 5-10 prospects per year that are ready-made for college and shape your offense to highlight their strengths?

When you think about some of the most impactful college QBs in recent years, many seemed to display elite decision making and accuracy very early on (Bryce Young, Caleb Williams, Trevor Lawrence) or unlocked their potential through offensive design (Joe Burrow, CJ Stroud, Mac Jones, Justin Fields).

Joined: 04/04/2019

MGoPoints: 7225

KRK

January 26th, 2023 at 12:40 PM ^

I guess if you know you're getting a 5* guy every year, then it's not as important.  All the guys you listed were high 4* or 5* guys, other than Jones.  And they all were at programs that have insane talent and run systems that get guys wide open and make reads easy.  Michigan doesn't run a system like any of those programs and doesn't have the same talent at the skill positions.

So if you're Michigan and you can't get a guy like JJ every year, and you're relying on middle range 4* or 3* QB recruits, then development is all you have left. 

Cade had a QB coach through most of HS and so have a lot of the QB recruits over the last 7-10 years.  None of them panned out.

Joined: 07/17/2008

MGoPoints: 5614

KC Wolve

January 26th, 2023 at 1:43 PM ^

I've always wondered this, but the question seems more relevant now than before NIL. What is an "ace recruiter"? What does he or she do that sets them a part from others? I know it is somewhat sales and sending someone with no personality/social skills to a HS kids home wouldn't work out great, but what do "ace recruiters" actually do better than regular or bad recruiters? UM has top facilities, great coaches, great school, and has won the big 10 and been to the playoff 2 years in a row. What would an elite recruiter say to kids that the current staff isn't saying to them to get them to come to UM? 

Joined: 10/09/2010

MGoPoints: 12681

KRK

January 26th, 2023 at 1:51 PM ^

It really is as simple as being a good salesman.  There are variations of this, like shady guys who are full of shit and lie to recruits, and their are genuine guys who are just good at selling their program.  But it's as simple as being able to connect with HS kids, develop a relationship, and close the deal.  Some guys are dynamic personalities, and others are not.

Joined: 07/17/2008

MGoPoints: 5614

Seth

January 26th, 2023 at 3:07 PM ^

It's not intuitive but we see it on the trail. Guys who are good at recruiting connect well with players and win head to head battles for higher ranked players pretty consistently. And it's rare for a guy who misses on a lot of prospects to get better.

Partridge was one of the most effective recruiters in Michigan history. That was evident when he was a HS coach and built Paramus by recruiting Peppers, Gary, et al. At Michigan he's the guy who made inroads into Georgia and signed most of Michigan's 5-stars of the Harbaugh era. Partridge was involved in a lot of recruitments outside of his region and position group because he was the best at connecting with players. Some recruitments that don't happen without him include:

  • Cesar Ruiz
  • Dax Hill (with Sherrone)
  • Rashan Gary
  • Devin Bush (and teammates Josh Metellus & Devin Gil)
  • Aubrey Solomon
  • Chris Hinton
  • DJ Turner
  • Ambry Thomas
  • Trente Jones
  • Khaleke Hudson
  • Ben Mason
  • David Ojabo
  • Josh Ross

And before he left as safeties coach he'd just restocked the room with Jordan Morant, RJ Moten, and Makari Paige the year after Dax.

Michigan's had bad recruiters too, and we've seen the results down the line when their positions are missing key elements, e.g. Drevno when they had no left tackles. And you can go back to specific recruitments, like when he lost contact with Mekhi Becton, or didn't follow up in time with Obinna Eze, or got blindsided when they had Isaiah Wilson silently committed and Georgia came in with some big bag.

Michigan doesn't sell itself as much as you think. All of the schools today pour millions into their programs, and come out looking like professional football player-building outfits. They know how to sell the success of their alumni, and make their schools look amazing. Also recruiting is virtually nonstop for college coaches. When you get a coach who doesn't want to talk to high schoolers all the damn time, those high schoolers will be talking to another coach who does. I don't fault Drevno for being a regular adult person. I do appreciate a Partridge who has that skill immensely though.

Joined: 10/14/2008

MGoPoints: 149423

KC Wolve

January 26th, 2023 at 3:17 PM ^

Thanks Seth. I guess I always just assumed that if you are a top school facilities wise and were having success, it was mostly playing time/fit, but apparently some of these guys are truly gifted at convincing kids to come to a school. I'm def on board with hiring more of those guys. 

Joined: 10/09/2010

MGoPoints: 12681

AC1997

January 26th, 2023 at 5:32 PM ^

So, I haven't listened yet.....but did someone make the case that keeping DDJ would have solved problems?  That's insanity.  

DDJ seems like a nice kid and I'm glad he's had a solid career, but he's not even really a PG and has been a highly inefficient player at a lower major school.  DDJ is sort of like Frankie Collins without the elite defense.  While he's having a solid 5th year season this year, the past two year's he's combined to shoot 27% from three with a middling turnover ratio.  For context, in his one year at Michigan Mike Smith had 149 assists.  DDJ averages around 85 per season.  Sorry, but he would NOT have been a solution.  

The real roster issue is that Juwan arrived too late to recruit guards in his first class (Zeb was a holdover and clearly not a high major player) so he had to go with transfers and convince Eli to stick around.  He had the right idea with Frankie/Kobe but supporting them with Jones/Eli.  The issue is that Frankie was the wrong recruit to take and Kobe is still not ready to be a major part of your success.  I think the hope was that we'd have our two top-50 recruits breaking out this year, bring in Llewelyn to be the steady combo vet, and bring Dug along slowly behind them.  Frankie flaked, Kobe is massively improved but still erratic, Llewelyn got hurt, and Dug is forced to play too soon.  

The second issue is that Juwan continues to sign long-term projects at forward who aren't ready to play and loses the forwards who are to the NBA.  The irony is that we have 4 power forwards on this roster and none of them are good enough to start on a B10 contender.  Meanwhile, we have 8 total forwards and the only one good enough to start is now out with an ankle.  You can't devote that much of your roster to projects or role players. If it were me, I wouldn't have signed Greg Glenn because he's a family friend I would have been more aggressive in the portal with guards or forwards.  Or when Shannon fell apart I would have had back-up plans and used Yo-Yo's scholarship.  Jacob Grandison is a backup at Duke who would probably start for us.   

Joined: 09/19/2008

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