WTKA Roundtable 11/7/2019: The Ivory Towers
Football things discussed:
- Bad OL we've faced warped our ideas of how good the defense holds up inside. Maryland had some good guards, managed to beat the DTs.
- Don Brown has warped our expectations for defense: aw man they got over 200 yards because of garbage time.
- Nico Collins has drawn 7 PIs this year, which is more than anyone in the country on a per throw basis because the leapy Kentucky guy whose quarterback is the source of the tagline.
- Michigan was pretty good at adjusting to Maryland trying their best not to get edged by having the backs cut back inside.
- Brian: backs haven't been leaving yards on the field.
- There's a line between rearranging the deck chairs and having some continuity.
Hoops:
- Different reactions to getting up 30 and then it's 4.
- The Ivory Towers personnel: Castleton with Teske makes things very big.
- Brooks when he is shooting well is a starting two, still think Franz is going to be on the court when he's healthy.
- Craig argues this having not seen him play college yet—he's sold on Brooks at the two and Franz is at the three and Livers is at the four and Johns is on the bench. Doesn't like the Ivory Towers.
- State is good, until you get to the Keebler Elf.
- Gotta work inside-out, get something closer to Beilein's turnover rate.
[Player after THE JUMP]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment two is here. Section three is here.
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He's getting interfered with more than anyone in the country except Ahmad Wagner, who you might remember playing for Iowa basketball, who's now at Kentucky, and he has a similar kind of profile of like: "why aren't you throwing to him?" Well Kentucky isn't throwing to him because their quarterback is now Lynn Bowden who is basically a single-wing fullback. Michigan doesn't have as good as an explanation for why Nico Collins only has 47 targets this deep into the season.
November 8th, 2019 at 7:45 AM ^
After six years, Craig Ross is still wrong about who screamed "I've got blisters on my fingers!" at the end of "Helter Skelter." It was Ringo Starr, not John Lennon.
The band had done around 18 takes in a row of the five-minute song, and at the end of the last one Ringo threw his drum sticks across the studio and stormed out because he literally had blisters and couldn't continue. It wasn't a scripted line.
November 8th, 2019 at 8:33 AM ^
Hahaha, came here to post just this! He said this earlier in the season, and I tried to correct him them too. Come on, Craig!
November 8th, 2019 at 9:06 AM ^
OK. I forgot. In another 6 years I will get it wrong again and apologize again and be wrong then, too, since my memory will be completely blasted away by then, on the off chance I am still alive.
So I better apologize now, again.
In 1,000 Clowns Jason Robards says the only thing you can really expect out of life is a "really good apology."
So, doing my best.
November 8th, 2019 at 5:19 PM ^
Yes, RINGO dammit. And I remember commenting on this the last time it was mentioned...!
November 8th, 2019 at 8:37 AM ^
Craig's complete lack of understanding of the rigors of a college basketball season on the human body is, at this point, stupefying. In no world is it at all possible to play a full season with a 6 man rotation. To even suggest it nearly negates any other analytical contribution he makes because it is obvious he lacks a basic level of comprehension on how the sport is played in 2019.
November 8th, 2019 at 9:23 AM ^
Many teams in the 70s, including some at UM, lived on 6 guy rotations and those teams over achieved. Last year, UM, a team I thought over achieved, was running a 6-man rotaton, 6.5 man if foul troubles, by the end of the year.
I was a hack, playground athlete in a sedate job in the 80s. I played 6 days per week, at least two hours at a pop with no rest. The times when I was least tired was the officiated games, which had breaks. At the end of officiated games I always felt like I never had a sufficient workout.
I was far from an elite athlete and far from elite shape, but I could get up and down a basketball court with ease, day after day.
In my home town there was a kid who played across the city from me. Played at Indiana, was all Big Ten one year, and had a cup of coffee in the NBA. I tried to check him a couple of times---and was demolished. He was the player of the year in Ohio in his senior season----biggest schools. He said his problems on game days was that he didn't get in enough running prior to the games---that he needed a pretty good workout to be at his best. Another guy, played at UM and had an NBA career if he hadn't gotten hurt, was a later POY in Ohio and he told me very similar things.
I don't buy this narrative. That said, I have been wrong about a lot of things and this may be one of them.
November 8th, 2019 at 9:29 AM ^
Michael Jordan played all 82 games and now Kawhi Leonard can only play every third night.
Pitchers used to go complete games on the regular and now they get pulled in the 7th with no hitters because of the pre-determined pitch count.
Everyone is trying to find the optimal amount of rest for players. Perhaps it's erring on the side of too much rest, but I bet the old days are not optimal either.
I can't imagine one sub for the entire year is a good idea. The rotation gets shortened up in the more critical games, especially down the stretch. Last year we had hardly any bench to speak of (especially in a Beilein system). I don't think the drop-off with the bench will appear as steep this year.
November 8th, 2019 at 10:00 AM ^
You should really stop comparing your rec league games in the 80's to what college basketball players 30 years later are doing. It would be like me, a solid 5.0 tennis player, comparing what I do to what Andrew Fenty does. Yeah, the "skill" level isn't too far apart, but the conditioning and effort necessary are worlds different, as are the opposition.
Back to your position on a 6 man rotation.
In 17-18 the rotation was 9.5 players.
In 13-14 the rotation was 9 players.
In 12-13 the rotation was 9 players.
Those are the teams I think we can all agree are what we'd like to see as much as possible be recreated. Especially when we consider that it obvious that no Michigan teams in the near future are going to play at the deliberate pace of the last decade, but are going to get out and run. In your rotation, the 1-4 would have to play all 40 minutes because even you must recognize it's impossible for people the size of Teske and Castleton to play that pace for for more than 20-25 minutes. You simply can't build a rotation of 6 guys and do what Howard wants to do.
Craig, I really like you and your insight, but this is such a strange hill to die on. Anyhow, if I ever run into you after a football game, I'd love to buy you a beer and pick your brain.
November 8th, 2019 at 10:45 AM ^
Yeah, I know I'd love to have a beer with a guy who calls my observations "stupefying" and says I "obviously" lack a "basic level of comprehension on how [basketball] is played in 2019." Maybe dial down the heat a bit?
November 8th, 2019 at 11:14 AM ^
I dialed it down from what he seem to hear on a weekly basis from Brian and Ed. You're right though, and I was wrong. Mea culpa.
November 8th, 2019 at 10:52 AM ^
Well, there aren't that many solid 5.0s around, so you could probably at least hit with Fenty.
November 8th, 2019 at 11:12 AM ^
Sure, I could hit with him, but I could never compete with him. Which is sort of my point about you comparing your pick up games from the 80's to major college basketball.
I am still curious as to how your 6 man rotation idea works with regard to those three teams I listed though.
November 8th, 2019 at 12:39 PM ^
JB tended to limit the rotation as the season went along.
In 2016-17 it was a 5 man deal with DJ Wilson as # 6, and not much else.
In 2017-18 it was X, MAAR, Charles, Mo, Duncan. Teske got 26% of the minutes---largely due to Mo's foul issues. Livers had 38% minutes. So, I guess I would call this a 6.5 , man rotation.
I don't think the levels of competition matter to my point. The question is, is an elite 20 year old (or any other level) player going to wear down and decline in performance because on Tuesdays and Saturdays he plays 35 minutes in a game versus (say) 28 minutes. I am quite skeptical and have seen many teams---elite teams---play with six guys without any obvious problems, except when they decline in talent level (guys- #7-13). Now, if there is no drop in talent level, maybe that's another matter. And also a quite unusual team.
November 8th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
Teske was clearly gassed in the second half, and it seemed as though much of the team was tired (or played like it) too.
We need subs (it was crazy).
November 8th, 2019 at 10:31 AM ^
Seth! We love you for putting this up! And when Craig pulled out the six man rotation line is the most I've laughed at a roundtable so I'm glad it is back this week.
November 8th, 2019 at 12:57 PM ^
There was at least one game under Beilein when Michigan carved up the 2-3 zone: the 2013 national semifinal vs. Syracuse. Thanks, Mitch!
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