OT - Sinéad O’Connor has died
Sometimes its about approach. Ripping up a picture of the Pope was not meant to address an issue, but rather cause controversy. Imagine someone ripping up a picture of Mohamed (PBUH) or the Shah of Iran on SNL. Not a great approach.
While I loved her music, she turned out to be a rotten individual. Racist and anti-semitic. It's well documented that she had a lot of mental issues.
She was a troubled soul, no doubt about it. But I always admired the tearing up of the photo as an act of moral courage. I wouldn't have done it — I'm not Catholic, and I'm not sure I agreed with it as the best means of conveying her message — but I respected her passion, her commitment, and her willingness to stand up for what she believes, when so many other entertainers take the money and sit their ass back down.
Artists used to use their platforms to advocate. Now they use their platforms to make that cash, baby. Sinead stood up, and suffered for it.
Props.
I'm Catholic and I'm not offended by her message. However, I may not be a good example since I rarely (if ever) get offended by anything.
Fundamentally, there were (are?) issues in the Catholic church that needed to be addressed. I just don't think she was super genuine about it. I mean, she converted to a religion that has a far worse track record around sexual abuse and anti-human rights practices with women and LGBT. Again, would you feel the same if she ripped up a picture of Mohammed (PBUH) or the Shah of Iran?
Yeah I would, actually. More so, because the risks inherent in that would have been so much greater. I admire her courage.
As I said, I don't see a problem deciding the tenets of Islam are more to your liking than the tenets of ... Shintoism or Catholicism or Judaism or whatever. I don't happen to agree, but ... so what? Better to choose your religion independently than simply because you were raised in it.
I think as a faith and source of strength, they're all more or less identical, honestly. I don't think one religion is "better" than the other. The Christian Crusaders and those pursuing the Spanish Inquisition were not holier than the Muslims pursuing jihad today. I just separate the religion from the idiots who follow it.
My point is that Sinead O'Connor had every right to: a) object to the role of the Catholic Church in Ireland; and b) choose which religion to follow. Those two things do not contradict one another.
Ripping up a picture of the Pope was not meant to address an issue, but rather cause controversy.
I missed the part where she told you her intent about doing that.
She tore up a photo and a shitpile of people were more angry about torn paper than tens of thousands of sex abuse victims and a gigantic, rich church led by someone who was doing little to nothing about it.
I think her intent was more clear when she converted to a religion that has a far worse track record with women and LGBT. She doesn't care about abuse to people. If she did, she'd be tearing up pictures of the religious leaders in her own religion.
Ugh.
Ok. Just stop. If you’re being objective, it’s far better to be a Catholic woman in Ireland than Muslim woman anywhere. There’s no mental gymnastics you can exercise to deny that.
I don’t know many Muslim women who opted for Catholicism, but I do know a few who left Catholicism for Islam. You have to get past your stereotypes. Islam has a strong appeal for many people, and women no less. It’s ironic that paintings of the Mother Mary essentially depict a Muslim woman of today in her modest head covering. That’s no knock on Catholicism.
That’s because you are part of your Muslim community which means you have self selecting bias. Like me.
We have plenty of former Muslim women in my Church. Women who fell in love with Catholic men who didn’t want wear restrictive clothing all the time because they were women. For the one that I know it was very difficult for her since her family basically disowned her for being an “apostate”.
All objective data illustrates that Islam is not kind to women and certain minorities. Catholicism is not perfect, but much better in that regard.
“Objective data?” Please share whatever you have of that.
I live in the US. People here accept Islam by choice, including women. Not all Muslim converts follow all the rules such as women covering up. But many do so willingly.
It’s not in our human nature to want to follow rules, and some people who are shortsighted or unmotivated tend not to. But the rules of Islam are there for the betterment of society, and unlike man made rules, divine rules give us extra incentive to follow them. Despite the challenges, some people actually love following the rules (or at least love the concept of holding themselves to certain values and principles in a strict way, especially knowing that such commitment and effort will be rewarded by God in the afterlife).
Just as you accused me, you are probably biased by your experience and your exposure. Please do go out and try to talk to committed Muslim women (even converts) and ask them if they feel “mistreated” by the very religion they willingly adopted or adhere to.
Sure. Take a look at the link below that illustrates the human rights index throughout the world. The Islam dominated countries are not near as good compared to Ireland (catholic dominated).
No doubt, being a Muslim in the US is more kind to human rights, but the number of Muslims in the US comprise less than 1% of the world Muslim population.
Interesting link. I haven't researched the organizations and foundations behind this data, but my impression thus far is that this "objective data" can be quite subjective. Take for example some of the metrics they use to come up with their "human rights" indices:
Gender marker can be legally changed
Joint adoptions by same-sex partners
Third gender legally recognized
Specifically with respect to the treatment of women, they have:
Women can work in a job deemed dangerous in the same way as men
Share of women who were married by age 18
Spouses have equal legal administrative authority over assets during marriage
Share of firms with a female top manager
This is just a small sampling. Don't you think it's fairly subjective as to what categories one decides should be on the list of "human rights" and "women's rights?" Clearly, certain nations (some of whom ironically may have a track record of running roughshod over other ones through their neo-colonialist and dictator-supporting policies) are judging the world based on their own criteria of how they think society should ideally be shaped, even though other parts of the world may have a different set of values.
Another thing about these kinds of analyses that rub me the wrong way is that they sort of pile it on less privileged people. Imagine a politically repressed people in a dictatorial country being looked down upon and judged for this lack of freedom, especially if their dictator enjoys the support of the same people who are looking down upon them!
If you want to make the case that Islam "objectively" is unkind to women, I think you'll need to demonstrate this lack of kindness in the actual teachings of Islam, not point to statistics--some of which are circumstantial, some irrelevant, and some which beg the question. I'll be the first to tell you that Islam deals with men and women as though they were different in some important ways, but there are no teachings to be unkind to them; in fact, it's quite the contrary. The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have taught, to the very end, of the importance of being good to women. But don't expect everyone to regard it as "kindness" to, say, allow women to work dangerous jobs the same way as men.
There are several other human rights indices that you can review and they will all say pretty much the same thing.
Let me just be clear here. I have nothing against Muslims as people, I just have some reservations about some ideas in the Islamic faith that I find illiberal and don’t fit with western cultures. That’s fine, every culture is different. And it’s not like I’m an amateur here. I’ve spent a lot of time in Islam ruled countries with no problem. And I’ve had many conversations with Coptic Christians and Chaldeans from the Middle East who offer a very unique perspective.
This very thread had many people express their reservations of my faith (Catholicism) and never did I once get offended because generally speaking they are correct. Catholicism had a lot of issues that needed to be addressed, and I think they’ve done some good things to that end (with some more to go). If you can’t look yourself in the mirror and be objective about the issues of your faith, then you’re being overly dogmatic.
Of course, if you bring more of the same, it will say the same thing.
It's funny that you have no problem with Muslims but rather with Islam. As for me, I don't have a problem calling out Muslims for instances of unacceptable behavior, while I see Islam itself as being a positive force in the world, if practiced correctly. If you can identify Islamic teachings that you think are objectively wrong, especially as it pertains to the treatment of women, please tell me. I won't disagree with you that Islam is not "liberal" in the way that Western societies are. Islam has its own set of values, some unique from and some shared with the West (especially if you go back in time a few decades, since Western society is changing in some drastic ways lately).
As for Christians in the Muslims world, say the Middle East, you will get varying perspectives. Some will feel like they are marginalized, while others will feel like they are treated like anyone else. It's the same with Muslims in the US (or for that matter, other ethnic or racial groups). Some will speak glowingly about their experience, while others will cry oppression and persecution (rightfully or wrongly).
I have no issues with Catholicism or Catholics. I respect religious people, especially those coming from the Abrahamic tradition. I just object to a simplistic comparison where you claim that Catholicism treats women better than Islam does. Please specify what you mean by that. Or if you want me to forget you said that, I'm happy to do that as well. lol
No. Please don’t forget I said that, because I stand behind what I said.
Right now, there are woman being stoned in the Islamic world for something irrelevant. This doesn’t happen to Catholic women in Ireland.
Right now, there is an Islamic woman in the Islamic world who likes her hair cut and wants to share with the world, but she can’t because she’s a woman. This doesn’t happen to Catholic women in Ireland.
Right now, there is an Islamic woman in the Islamic world being thrown off the roof because she may be a lesbian. This doesn’t happen to Catholic women in Ireland.
Sinead O’Connor can rip up a picture of the Pope and face little backlash. Yet, some Charlie Hebdo cartoonists can draw a Muhammad illustration and get killed for it (including women). This was lauded by many Islamic scholars.
I can go on.
Dude, you’re playing on stereotypes. And you’re conflating isolated events with Islamic teachings. By and large, although a woman showing her hair is against Islam, there is no punishment for doing so in almost every Muslim country. Yet here you are pretending like there’s this epidemic of women being stoned to death. That’s laughable.
For the record, Islam is against adultery, and it has a prescribed punishment for it (as does the Bible), but it is extremely rarely implemented because it’s almost impossible to have four independent trustworthy eyewitnesses to direct penetration (sorry to be explicit). This would apply to men and women adulterers just the same. So the notion of Islam “stoning women” is practically a figment of people’s imagination. Try to be more discerning.
Arguments over who's imaginary friend is worse are awesome.
dude, shut the fuck up.
I agree. Desecrating the religious symbols of others is not a way to make any meaningful point. All it does is inflame anger.
That is one of the most moving pieces of music that I have ever heard. Thanks for posting that.
Such a talent. She was a troubled soul. May she rest in peace.
Too bald for her I hair in the condolences.
quoting Phil Hartman as Frank Sinatra , “ What’s up with the bald chick?”. RIP Sinead, nothing compared 2 U.
Way too young. Condolences to her children.
I always liked her music.
And she stood up for what she believed about the crimes of the church.
I hope she is at peace.
If you’re unfamiliar with her music and have 6 1/2 minutes to spare, give this a listen.
RIP to a troubled and talented person
Relistened to I Do Not Want What I Haven’t Got and it’s still great. I forgot how terrific and heartbreaking some of the songs are, like Black Boys on Mopeds. RIP.