Deconstructing The Denard Debate

Submitted by michgoblue on

During the week after the MSU loss and in the days since the Iowa loss, there were countless threads and comments attempting to analyze what is wrong with Denard or with the Al Borges Denard fusion.  I think that there are some valid arguments, but there is so much noise surrounding the issue.  My attempt to address each of these arguments and consolidate the discussion into a single thread:

1.  Al Borges has turned Denard into a "caged animal" by prohibiting Denard to take off.

There are several plays against Iowa where Denard had an oen running lane, but didn't take it, electing instead to throw the ball.  Frustrating, I agree, given his speed (and relative lack of success through the air.  I saw a few posters claim that Denard did not take off because Borges has beat it into his head that he shouldn't run.  To me, this is nonsensical. 

Borges has said on numerous occasions that he wants to Denard to look throw, but to also use his legs to punish defenses.  When Borges and Hoke have talked about limiting Denard's runs, it is clear that they were talking about designed QB runs or spread option read runs.  If we want to look for the true answer to Denard's lack of scramble, look to Denard's own words from the presser when asked about this.  He said something to the effect of, "I didn't see the open lane because I was looking down field."  One of Denard's biggest problems (discussed below) is his lack of vision. 

2.  The QB Lead - where has it gone.

It has largely gone away.  There is a 50/50 divide on this blog about whether this is good or bad.  My personal view is that it is a good thing that we do this less.  While it was effective to some extent during the first half of last season, its effectiveness lessened considerably over the second half, and Denard took too much of a beating.  By 9 games in last season, Denard had missed significant time in several games, and he played injured for most of the second half.  At least this year, his punishment has been lessened, and he has stayed in most games.

3.  Denard's effectiveness has gone down because there is now tape on him.

I saw a poster make this point in one of the other threads, and I think that this is a great point. During the first half of last season, Denard was a new player with no tape - no way to scout his tendencies, and therefore his natural abilities were able to take over (also caveat about weak first 1/2 competition).  By the second half of 2010, MSU had tape and came up with a great way to stop Denard.  Future opponents had this tape and since then, have been able to come up with ways to limit his effectiveness.  This doesn't mean that Denard is no longer effective, but that during the first 1/2 of 2010, his effectiveness was artificially inflated.

A great example of this.  I recall the announcers during a game in mid-2010 calling Denard's pump fake followed by a run "one of the greatest weapons in cfb."  Look at this year - defenders don't even bite on the pump fake because now they have figured out that if he actually throws, it is unlikely to hurt them.  Not a criticism of Denard - this is a normal thing, players have tendencies and once those tendencies are understood by others, they are easier to defend. 

4.  Denard's vision issues - what's the deal?  Does he need to go to Stonum and Rountree's eye doctor?

Denard lacks field vision.  This is becomming increasingly clear.  He consistently throws into tight or double coverage when there are receivers arm wavingly open or running lanes that you could drive a bus through.  This has not improves.  For many quarterbacks this is a problem until one day, they suddenly make the jump.  Denard, please make this jump soon.

Is some of this on coaching?  Perhaps, although he has exhibited this flaw under two entirely different coaches.  Is some of this on the change in system?  Sure, he may have finally clicked at this point in the season had the system stayed identical.  More likely, however, is that Denard is simply not a good decision makes. 

Many QBs have a single flaw that really brings down their overall game.  Henne, for example, never felt pressure coming until it was too late.  (the jury is still out for Henne as to whether this will impact his career).  But, this lack of vision is getting to be a real problem as we are not only leaving points on the board, but we are giving up points off of turnovers.

5.  Denard in the new system - can it work?

I personally think yes.  I know that many are down on Denard, but I thought he played his best true QB game.  He stayed in the pocket (ok, sometimes too much), and even moves the pocket on plays.  He also made nice short throws, and essentially marched us down the field 80 yards on the last drive, even with receivers dropping balls all day.  To me, he looked like a QB today - once he makes the next step forward, I actually think that criticism of his vision aside, he is starting to get better in this offense.  That said, his deap ball sucks, but that is what it is. 

6.  Devin - should he be playing more?

No.  I loved the 2-QB set when it debuted.  Now I agree with the announcers that it is causing Denard to lose rhythem.  I think that Devin has potential, but he is currently a lesser Denard.  Can't run as well, worse decision makes RIGHT NOW (inexperienced, not a criticism), and doesn't look all that much better theowing it RIGHT NOW.  I would stick wiht Denard, and maybe work in the 2-QB set when we are either leading or really struggling.  Caveat:  if we break it out against OSU with all new wrinkles (such as Mike Martin as RB or V. Smith as TE or Denard as left tackle) and success, I reserve the right to change my opinion.

7.  Has Denard lost a step.

Yes.  He is noticably slower.  If you remove the hype, had never watched him play before and jsut watched the last few games, you would not say, "OMG he is faster than a cheetah strapped to a jet pack."  You would say "that QB can move pretty well."  On his few runs, even his 2 longish ones, he looked good, but not great.  He is definitely missing his burst.  Is he injured?  Fatigued?  Not sure, but he is not as explosive as in the past.

That's it.  I hope this leads to some good discussion.

reshp1

November 7th, 2011 at 2:16 PM ^

I think number 3 is the major problem. Collectively, our opponents have figured out how to contain Denard. To take it one step further, they not only know how to contain him, but they also now know what they DON'T need to do, which is worry about throwing (at least not as much). I think a lot of people are looking at last year vs this year and automatically looking to the biggest change, the coaches and play calling, and assuming that's the difference. I don't discount that, but I think it's unreasonable to expect a frankly one-dimensional player to continue to be as effective indefinitely, no matter how good that dimension is. Until Denard or the rest of the team can punish opponents for cheating their defenses to stop him, I think all the other elements are secondary. 

EDIT: I'm referring to effectiveness of his running. The drop off in passing I think is mostly a function of the new system IMO

mgobluebraelow

November 7th, 2011 at 2:32 PM ^

How do we know for sure that Denard is slower?  That seems like a baseless statement.  I see a guy who is trying to follow his blocks a little more and not take so many dangerous open-field hits.  It is probably causing him to be a tad more hesitant and therefore seem slower, but unless someone has some pretty solid evidence that he's slower I'm not buyin' it.

mgobluebraelow

November 7th, 2011 at 3:31 PM ^

Fair enough.  I disagree though.  As I mentioned before he could be following his blocks and trying to avoid the big hits down field, but also, defenders are more than likely taking uber-adjusted angles to compensate for his speed.  I personally think he's running far more conservatively and I do not see any lack in burst relative to last season.

funkywolve

November 7th, 2011 at 6:51 PM ^

I seriously doubt anyone involved with the football team will mention anything about Denard possibly being hurt until the regular season is over.  If UM somehow makes the Big 10 title game, it won't be until after that game is played.

chunkums

November 7th, 2011 at 3:14 PM ^

This is year one in a different system with a pro-style coach who has run quite a bit of spread option stuff considering his experience with it.  If anyone could just walk in and coach the stuff, then there would be no point in paying Chip Kelly and Rich Rodriguez large sums of money to do what they do.  An AD could just hire some dude with experience dominating his dynasty on Xbox.

Ultimately, we need patience.  This is Denard's first time EVER with complex routes, so there will be growing pains.  Furthermore, it is many of the WRs first times EVER with complex routes.

Franz Schubert

November 7th, 2011 at 5:48 PM ^

D.Robinson is not good in any area other than running and being a great guy. He is possibly the worst passer I have ever witnessed throw a ball on a Big Ten field and there is almost 2 full seasons worth of evidence which makes it clear. He does not read defenses, he does not consistently make progressions, he invarriably over or underthrows any pass over 20 yards, he locks on to recievers and routinely forces throws into double coverage, and on top of it all he rarely ever will take off and run when recievers are covered. Im at a loss to understand how UM is playing a QB that does not possess any of the required skills for the position?

Having stated the obvious above, I am not for switching to Gardner for one reason and one reason only, he has not showed anything that would lead me to believe he can do better. The only answer is to gameplan to DR's very limited strenghts, running the ball and short  controlled passes. Scrap the I-formation, all shotgun, with plenty of roll outs for pass/run option and bubble screens.

Unfortunately I dont think you can win games aginst decent teams without a legitimate passing QB who can hit an occasional deep ball, which keeps secondaries honest.

chunkums

November 7th, 2011 at 6:56 PM ^

The thing is, however, that he completed over 60% of his passes and had one of the top 30 passer ratings in the nation last year as a terrible passer.  He has a cannon.  He just needs to learn the offense and get some help along the way.

michgoblue

November 7th, 2011 at 7:56 PM ^

Thy don't always tell an accurate story.
<br>
<br>Denard's top 30 passer rating:
<br>
<br>1. Was largely the result of short passes. Not very many long balls that were well thrown.
<br>
<br>2. Were heavily padded against the weak part of the schedule. Against the MSU, Iowa, wisco, psu, OSU and MSU (gator), his passer rating was not very good.
<br>
<br>3. Was largely the result of teams beig so afraid of his legs that they gave up the pass.
<br>
<br>Stats ate nice but anyone with a set of eyes (hell, a single eye will do) can tell that Denard really struggles as a qb at anything other than running.
<br>
<br>That said, I actually found the Iowa game encouraging. He lookedore like a qb. Just can't hit the long one or read the field. But still better pocket presence than the prior games.

profitgoblue

November 7th, 2011 at 4:04 PM ^

I take offense to you deeming my "Denard as a caged animal" theory "nonsensical."  Not really, but I don't think it is as easily dismissed as you seem to imply. 

Borges has definitely played a lot of good lip-service to using Denard's skills to their utmost.  However, each succeeding week has seen his running production drop.  I was okay with it last week (in case anyone cared what I thought) because the focus was clearly on establishing a "regular" rushing attack against a team that could be easily pushed around.  However, it is clear that Borges is slowly giving up on the zone read, the formation/scheme that maximizes Denard's skills. 

Most importantly, however, is not what Borges is affirmative doing.  I think this is a case of Denard trying to please his coaches and show he can fit into the "new" offense.  I definitely think its clear that Denard is desperately trying to be a passing first quarterback.  You can see it every week.  Denard is working hard to stay in the pocket on passing downs.  He is clearly pushing his instincts aside and not using his legs as much as he has in the past.  I'm not saying that Borges is keeping him at bay - what I'm saying is that Denard is working at proving he can throw as well as run, which I think Borges has probably stressed all year.  So, sub-consciously, Borges has been limiting him.

/end of crazy theory

Deep Under Cover

November 7th, 2011 at 4:13 PM ^

"Denard is working hard to stay in the pocket on passing downs.  He is clearly pushing his instincts aside and not using his legs as much as he has in the past."

When in the past has he ever used his legs on designed pass plays?  Where did this meme come from?  He has *never* been a scrambler, which frustrates me to no end.  He will almost ALWAYS pass on called passing plays unless the pocket really starts collapsing on him.

Unless you meant something else, in which case, disregard this irrelevant comment.

Deep Under Cover

November 7th, 2011 at 6:22 PM ^

Anyone I talk to about Denard, I tell them that Denard actually needs to be more like Troy Smith in that Smith was really good as using his run threat to open up the pass (which Braxton Miller has shown he can do, which worries me).  If Smith was flushed out of the pocket he would attack the line, which would draw in the run support, at which point he would punish them through the air (The Game where Crable- well, you know- is a perfect example of that).

Denard has more raw skillzzz than Smith, which should make him even better than Smith at this.  If he attacks the line, he draws in at least the linebackers and freezes the safeties.  He can then find the man coming open or punish the LB for likely underestimating his speed and taking a poor angle because Denard is freaky fast.  Right now, Denard seems to float back to buy time to pass, where he should be attacking the line and forcing the defense to make that difficult decision we like to talk about.

EDIT: I should add that this is also partly why Vince Young was so nasty in college.

michgoblue

November 7th, 2011 at 7:48 PM ^

Objects troy smith but he was highly effective in college. I had hopes that Denard would turn in to a similar player - can kill you with his legs which allows him to kill you with his arm. Also, I lost count of the number of times our d line would get penetration and smith would turn a sack into a 15 yard run. This is something that Denard rarely does. His run production was almost always on designed runs, not scrambles.

LSAClassOf2000

November 7th, 2011 at 7:45 PM ^

My own thoughts on each point:

1) I would agree that he is not currently the best at studying the field. D-Rob is trying very hard - maybe too hard - to do what the staff would like him to do. In the Iowa game, clearly there were passing lanes which would have been even better running lanes - Spielman pointed it out even, and I agreed with that observation.

2) This staff has done an excellent job - in relative terms - of protecting their QB. I admit to being fearful and asking the question, "How long does he last?" at the start of practices in August, and it's great to see him there in the game  for most of the snaps nine games in.

3) Obviously, the word gets out and the film accumulates, and the question that, I believe, this staff faces is this - how do you mix it up when you have Denard Robinson on your side? I trust them to find an answer.

4) Wouldn't it be morbidly amusing (emphasis on "morbidly") if contacts were the answer to some of the perceived ills?

5) Denard as a more conventional QB is yielding results. After all, weare 7-2. It's not perfect, and our QB is not perfect, but considering that it could have been a calamity to have a guy drafted for a totally different philosophy to play within another philosophy, it's being working well enough overall, more detailed statistics aside for a second. 

6) Devin playing more? Really, right now, you mean? Agree with the OP - no. 

7) My guess is  that is fatigued, if not injured. They'll never  get away from NOT using him to break off a run now and again, so it's medium-risk, high-reward, in my estimation. 

Red is Blue

November 7th, 2011 at 7:48 PM ^

One of the big differences that isn't being largely discussed is the tempo of the offensive.  Last year, they got to the line very quickly.  This year much slower.  Granted last year, they often took a while to check with the sidelines to see if the original play call stood, but the mere fact of getting to the line with the possibility of going quickly is another thing that has changed.

Maaly

November 7th, 2011 at 9:10 PM ^

1) agree

2) agree

3) agree

4) agree .... Dernard has vision issues because he's never been asked to read coverage or defense enough. If he did he would definitely would toss less INTS, and tacopants completions. 

5) agree yes it can work.

6) think Gardner shouldn't be playing right now. He looks very indecisive out there. People have to remember that he is only a sophmore with very limited PT  and going through the same off. scheme change with dernard. Wouldn't surprise me if they feed Gardner more Pro style reps in practice though. 

7) Dernard is tired man. He was a ONE MAN team last year.  If we had some stability in the run game that would help. Then we would need less of his scrambles and designed runs.