OT: Tigers Recall Inge (Commence Leyland Bashing)
Title about says it all... To make room for Inge Tigers sent Andy Dirks (Batting .257 with .730 OPS and 97 OPS+)
The sad thing is Inge hasn't even been tearing it up down in Toldeo. (Batting .287 and 19 RBI in 29 games)
The part that really kills me is we traded for Betemit he is hitting .300+ in a Tigers uniform and now we have three 3B on the roster.
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110819&content_id=…
August 20th, 2011 at 3:04 AM ^
He will start multiple games this week. I guarantee it.
You guys who think he is just coming here as a defensive replacement are NUTS.
August 20th, 2011 at 3:17 AM ^
Leyland will use him so you can bitch about Leyland, like you seemingly do in every Tiger's thread, is completely rational? If Inge starts several games I will be right there with you in terms of bitching about it, but complaining about his use before he even rejoins the the team is rather silly.
August 20th, 2011 at 9:58 AM ^
You will soon find out.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:37 PM ^
People will defend Leyland and Inge to the death. Never understood why.
August 20th, 2011 at 11:20 AM ^
Irrational haters such as yourself should like this move- at least this way if he continues to be as futile as he was earlier in the year they can do something about it before the playoff roster deadline. But his AAA numbers against lefties suggest that he earned a shot to prove he can contribute. There's no reason to hope he will, but it's better to find out now.
August 20th, 2011 at 2:36 AM ^
The bars downriver aren't kicking anyone out until 4 a.m. tonight so they can celebrate the news of their returning great white hope.
Going to the game Sunday. Can't wait to see half of Brownstown Township show up wearing their jerseys of a player hitting .177 in the majors this season. Represent, yo.
August 20th, 2011 at 3:17 AM ^
August 20th, 2011 at 11:28 AM ^
It's really not at all a good way to measure fielding ability.
Not that I'm saying Inge is the same player he used to be in the field, he's not. He was just average at best earlier this year.
And have people been watching Betemit flail away at left handed pitching? Why would you want him out there for that? He looks awful from the right side of the plate to the point where I don't understand why he bothers switch hitting.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:41 PM ^
are there really this many people out there who think errors is the only way to evaluate fielders? What an antiquated way of looking at things.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:49 PM ^
You are turning into a Sabermetrics(sp) snob. "Hi my name is MichFan1997 and I am so superior to you". Again here is another example of misrepresenting something to make yourself seem smart. Has anyone said, or has anyone in the history of the world thought,
errors is the only way to evaluate fielders
August 20th, 2011 at 12:58 PM ^
his comment was "Statistically he's almost equal defensively as Inge in fielding percentage with the same amount of errors." Yes this implies that errors are the way he evaluates fielders. Especially considering nothing else was said about things like range.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:12 PM ^
What it implies is errors are ONE of the ways he evaluates fielders, whereas you implied his position to be "errors is the only way to evaluate fielders", which quite frankly, is a position I have never seen anyone take, and then you topped it off with insinuating there were many people holding the same position. It is disingenuous and just flat out wrong to argue a point no one is making. I think you are more than capable of making your points without misrepresenting positons
I love hyperbole as much as the next guy, but I don't think you were being hyperbolic in your assessment. Maybe I am wrong.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:18 PM ^
here's my retort in a more argument constructed way. Range and Errors need to be evaluated equally on a scale that represents their worth. That's what UZR attempts to do. It also includes arm abilty for outfielders and double play range for infielders. It might not be a perfect exact metric (a UZR of 6 vs a UZR of 4 probably isn't a good gage of one player being better than another), but there IS a significant difference between Inge and Betemit as defenders. Coupled with Betemit's complete inability to hit vs lefties (seriously, the difference between Inge and Betemit hitting lefties this year is minimal), leads me to believe I'd rather see Inge vs LHP than Betemit.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:54 PM ^
What statistic are you using to show that Betemit is equal to Inge defensively? I think stating that Betemit is the worst non-pitching fielder in the major leagues isn't a huge stretch.
August 20th, 2011 at 3:26 AM ^
I'd rather play players that hit .280 and have a bad fielding percentage than playing a bunch of guys who hit .220 and can throw people out bottom line is in todays game you need hitters and good pitching to win more than fielding.
August 20th, 2011 at 3:44 AM ^
that Inge will get more starts than Betemit. If he does than bitching would be completely warranted. Your also seriously underestimating the importance of fielding, in terms of winning games. If you look at the recent World Series winners, most of them ranked highly in terms of defensive statistics. San Francisco had the best fielding % in the NL last season and Philly had the second best fielding % in the NL in 2009. That is not a coicindence.
August 20th, 2011 at 3:50 AM ^
as long as your fielder doesn't screw up all the time your alright. If Betemit can make 9 out of 10 throws then he should start with an average in the .280s
August 20th, 2011 at 7:47 AM ^
Agreed. This is typical. If the Tigers fail to win a division that was basically theirs for the taking a month ago I won't be surprised. Bad decisions down the stretch again.
August 20th, 2011 at 3:41 AM ^
Inge used to be a beast with the glove. Used to hit .250 and had some power too...used to. Lets compare Betemit vs Inge in 2011
Fielding:
Inge 69 games 9 errors .954 fielding
Betemit 65 games 10 errors .940 fielding
Those numbers arent that dar off. However lets take a look at their offensive stats.
Inge .177 avg 1 hr 17 rbi 18 runs
Betemit .285 avg 5 hr 39 rbi 32 runs
Now can you honestly tell me that Inge is a better player than Betemit in 2011? Betimit is hitting .300 with Detroit and has had a few key rbi already, more than you can say for Inge. I respect that Inge loves the state of Michigan and has done a lot for the Tigers but the Tigers have to play to make the playoffs. They still have next year to do the love affair with Inge.
August 20th, 2011 at 4:25 AM ^
Inge was a better player than Betemit or that Betemit shouldn't get the majority of the starts at 3rd? I don't see that anywhere in this thread, so I have no idea where your getting that from.
Also the concept of sample size comes into play here. Comparing fielding percentages over a 60 some game sample size, as basis for arguing that two players aren't that far apart defensively doesn't prove a whole lot. Inge's fielding percentages over the last three years are better than Betemit's by a good margin. Inge is not a great fielder anymore, but Betemit is far below average. Not to mention fielding percentage is important but doesn't tell the whole story. Range is also important. Inge has more range than Betemit and has the ability to make some plays, that Betemit is not capable of making.
August 20th, 2011 at 8:19 AM ^
August 20th, 2011 at 11:35 AM ^
At least this year. You can't just overlook that- a platoon certainly seems like it's the right call with him at the moment. Yeah, it would be great if the platoon player was someone better than Inge, but the mere idea of platooning him isn't a terrible, undefensible decision.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:48 PM ^
using only fielding percentage as their defensive argument. Inge is not the defender he used to be, but he's still vastly superior to Betemit on the field. Betemit is vastly superior with his bat. However, Inge AND Betemit are both not so good against lefty pitchers this year. In fact, when looking at their wOBA against lefties, it's probably better to just go with the better fielder in that situation. Which is Inge...by a lot.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:11 PM ^
OK sure but Inge will erase his defense superiority when he gets a hit every 3 games or rally ending DPs. Inge is like having a pitcher bat in the 9 hole. You can point to all your sabermetrics but in the end, we see what they do on the field and up to bat and overall Betemit gives this team a better chance to win.
We'll see when Inge goes 0-4 tonight.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:13 PM ^
that we can expect a hit out of Betemit when he's up there batting righty if he played tonight? Give me one good reason why Betemit should be in a lineup against lefty pitchers.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:56 PM ^
Because Betemit bats .100 points higher than Inge.
August 20th, 2011 at 2:02 PM ^
read the part where I said against lefties. Remind me again how great of a hitter Betemit is against lefties. (Hint: He's not)
August 20th, 2011 at 9:37 PM ^
he's still better than Inge.
August 20th, 2011 at 10:22 PM ^
A .569 OPS vs a .560 OPS hardly is a difference at all, especially when you consider the difference in defense. Betemit is a liablity in the lineup when there is a LHP on the mound. At least Inge provides and upgraded glove in that situation.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:23 PM ^
I have seen worse than Inge. Sheesh the 68 Tigers had Wert and Oyler on the left side of the infield and won the World Series. You would be hard pressed to find a worse hitting combo than that. At the end of the day. Leyland can only play the hand he is dealt, and there are plusses and minuses no matter which way he plays it.
Leyland could have started Kelly in centerfield against the Indians yesterday against the right hander but he went with Jackson, who against the odds hit the key 2 run homer to put the Tigers in the lead to stay. So I'm thinkin Leyland deserves all the credit for the win for playing the lineup that won the game, lord knows he is going to get all the blame from some, the next time the Tigers lose a game.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:27 PM ^
has actually hit righties better in the first 2 seasons he's been here so far. Though he does hit lefties better this year, a part of me believes that's probably a sample size thing.
August 20th, 2011 at 6:24 AM ^
Despite falling off this season, Inge is still better defensively at third base than Betemit, so as a defensive replacement in thight games (and I imagine there will be a fair number of these down the stretch), this actually should work out. You can have Betemit in there in the beginning because he actually is familiar with a bat and how to use it, but if it is, say, 5-4 in the 8th and you want to keep that lead, Inge can help you do that still.
August 20th, 2011 at 8:08 AM ^
August 20th, 2011 at 8:11 AM ^
He may need to submit to occasional catching duties if he wants to hang around Detroit for a few more years and call it a career. If the Tigers ever sort out what they want to do at 3B, I see a somewhat bleak future for Inge as a starter for some reason.
August 20th, 2011 at 8:25 AM ^
I know awhile back he was being a little baby about not playing 3B. Maybe now that it might be his only shot to get on the field he will reconsider though.
August 20th, 2011 at 10:59 AM ^
That is the only scenario I would find his presence acceptable outside of late inning defensive replacement at third.
Even before his very minor injury, Martinez was not a good guy to have as a backup catcher. He is too old and too valuable a hitter to be put in that position, especially where he offers such little defensive upside. Treating Avila this way has been damn near abusive.
August 20th, 2011 at 8:41 AM ^
What really bothers me is IF the Tigers make the playoffs, Inge will be on the active roster since he was called up prior to Sept. 1. And IF they make the playoffs, I have a sneaky suspicion I know who will be playing 3rd base whilst batting below the Mendoza line and striking out at a dizzying rate.
It seems increasingly obvious to me the Betemit deal was all Dombrowski and no Leyland. All the guy does is hit .300 and drive in runs. Dombrowski needs to down a shot of his favorite booze, hitch up his big boy pants, and announce the waiver of B. Inge. Rotate Betemit with Kelly every now and then. At least Kelly can hit .250 and put the ball in play. Inge may be great man off the field, but his time has passed as a MLB 3B.
August 20th, 2011 at 9:07 AM ^
You post would make more sense if Betemit actually did hit .300 or Kelley actually did hit .250. Neither do.
All you ARGHRGH LEYLAND!!! people need to chill out. Nobody is saying Inge is better than Betemit or even Kelley, other that with his glove. We don't even know that this is a Leyland move. It seems more like a joint move to me.
This is a fine move. Inge was going to be up eventually. Better to see if he can find his swing now before playoffs.
August 20th, 2011 at 10:23 AM ^
I'm not sure who bothers me more....the "leyland can do no right" side or people like you who praise every move he makes.
August 20th, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
Why is there no middle ground here? To me, it seemed like Tom wanted to wait and see before making a judgment, not praising the move.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:36 PM ^
There is a middle ground but I don't think tom has criticized one leyland move; it's the old "he's been around baseball forever so he knows more than anybody" mentality....that camp is just as annoying as the anti leyland camp
August 20th, 2011 at 3:06 PM ^
I'm not sure who bothers me more....the "leyland can do no right" side or people like you who praise every move he makes.I actually don't praise every move he's made. I've disagreed with a lot of them. I've also disagreed with moves and have had to back trace my comments after actually doing some research and finding the reasons for the move. That's what I try to argue - look at both sides of the decisions. Do the research. That means looking at more than the slash line. Every argument against Inge in this thread only brings up his batting average and his amount of errors. You gotta look deeper, and I don't even mean crazy saber metric stuff. Look at the splits, the schedule, the batters hitting in front and behind a given hitter. You have to account for it all. Most people don't bother and just make noise.
August 20th, 2011 at 1:22 PM ^
As a Tiger Betemit is hitting .300 with 2 hr and 12 ribbies so yea he is.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6811/career;_ylt=AhCimhbSphPsQ.3Mfs2VDG.FCLcF
August 20th, 2011 at 1:24 PM ^
he was referring to Betemit's overall .285 mark.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
of striking out at a dizzying rate, Betemit has struck out 39 percent of the time since we got him. That's 14 percent more than Inge. If we're gonna rip on Inge for something, let's do the whole being fair thing, ok?
August 20th, 2011 at 9:25 AM ^
Miss me?
August 20th, 2011 at 10:10 AM ^
Anyone know if Betemit can play any 2b? With Guillen once again hurt and Santiago and Raburn as the only 2b options, maybe Betemit is going to get some 2b action with Inge splitting with Kelly at 3rd.
August 20th, 2011 at 12:58 PM ^
That actually makes sense. Although doesn't a small part of you shudder at imagining Betemit trying to turn a double play?
August 20th, 2011 at 1:02 PM ^
say that it couldn't be worse than Raburn, but fangraphs shows Raburn as about MLB average at turning double plays for his career at 2nd base. So yeah, that thought about Betemit turning a double play does make me shudder.
August 20th, 2011 at 10:13 AM ^
You have to compare their splits against lefties, when Inge is likely to be used
Betemit . 235/.275/.569
Inge .195/ .295/.560
Thats right even in Inge horrible horrble year, he still has a better OBP vs lefties than Betemit and basically equivalent OPS.
No one should be quoting fielder percentage, its and incredibly flawed stat. It's how Jeter wins gold gloves when being the 10th best defensive SS in the league. Inge has a better Zone Rating over the last 3 years, you can't look at any defensive stats for this year only becuase of the small sample sizes of both players.
I'm no Inge fan. I think having him in the lineup is like having a pitcher, only worse at bunting. Maybe DD hoping for regresssion to the mean and only hitting lefties may make it simpler for Inge. Betemit is a butcher at 3rd, and since he can't lefties, it seems like a logical move.
The peope worried about playoff rosters there's genereally room for an extra position player because you don't need a 5th starter