OT: French Semis, Roger vs. Rafa

Submitted by goblueram on June 7th, 2019 at 7:18 AM

This morning we are treated to another iteration of the greatest rivalry in tennis history.  It's Federer vs. Nadal for a spot in the 2019 French Open Final.

This is their 39th overall meeting (Nadal leads 23-15), and their 13th in a Grand Slam (Nadal leads 9-3).

Laser Wolf

June 7th, 2019 at 8:25 AM ^

Would not have guessed that Nadal had such a great record against Federer. We’re lucky to have been able to watch these guys in their primes. 

bacon1431

June 7th, 2019 at 8:25 AM ^

Federer has never beat Nadal at Roland Garros, so the result is not really in doubt IMO. But it's always good to watch two all time greats even if it's a mismatch in a certain setting. 

mgokev

June 7th, 2019 at 8:49 AM ^

As only a casual fan, can someone help me understand what makes someone particularly good on clay vs. grass or hard court? What is it about Rafa (or clay?) that caters to the sustained success?

Everyone Murders

June 7th, 2019 at 9:15 AM ^

Next time you are near a clay court, see if you can sneak on just to walk around.  The surface is unique - you actually slide around a bit while you are playing.  This slipperiness not only impacts your footwork, but the ball "bites" into clay, making the effect of spin amplified.  And the ball comes off clay a bit slower than a hard court or grass.  Historically, that's meant that clay caters more to tactical players and is less rewarding of a pure power game.

Interestingly, though, the differences between clay, grass, and hard courts have diminished over the years - making the surfaces more consistent.  This allows players like Rafa to move between surfaces and still be pretty dominant.  (Of course a steady diet of steroids has also helped Rafa, depending on who you ask.)  The "blending" of the characteristics of the three main surfaces has been a bit of a controversy.  In any event, the days of "clay court specialist" are dwindling, if not gone.  That blending has meant that changing between surfaces is not as drastic as it was 20 years ago.

Clay forces changes in one's game, and is a hell of a lot of fun.  There was some hotel out in Ypsi that had outdoor clay courts back in the day, and I'd pretend that I thought they were public courts (they were near the road and away from the main hotel) until they'd chase me off.  Those were old-school clay (i.e., much "softer" than most clay courts these days), and just a riot to play on after spending nearly all my time playing on high school or muni hard courts.

Everyone Murders

June 7th, 2019 at 11:11 AM ^

I wouldn't say anybody has better overall body control or tactical placement than Federer (my all-time favorite player).  But with the start-stop and sliding that is unique to clay, Rafa does a great job covering the court.  Rafa also seems to focus on clay more than some of the other "golden age" stars - so as much as ability goes, it's also a choice to focus on clay.

To your original question, if you've ever played soccer on a soaking wet field (cough, cough, "pitch"), it will give you a sense of the difference you feel on clay.  You can't really run at things as hard, and you can't be quite as much in "react" mode as you are on a hardcourt surface.

MileHighWolverine

June 7th, 2019 at 12:55 PM ^

"(Of course a steady diet of steroids has also helped Rafa, depending on who you ask.)"

If you're going to say that, you may as well include Federer into the mix as well. Unless you think it's totally normal that after a period of 4 years of steady, consistent decline, it makes perfect sense for Federer to suddenly revert back to championship form. 

None of these guys are clean, IMO. It's not normal to dominate at this age.

Everyone Steals

June 7th, 2019 at 12:08 PM ^

Clay slows the game down.  The ball doesn't move through the court as quickly, so it allows more defensive players time to get back more balls.  This means that players who try to dictate points are more prone to making errors since they often have to hit more shots than normal and hit harder to win a point. Rafa is one of the best defensive players in the history of tennis.  He is able to stand 12 feet behind the baseline and essentially act like a backstop.  

Secondly, a tennis ball bounces higher on clay than on hard court or grass surfaces.  Rafa puts insane amounts of topspin on his shots, causing the ball to bounce higher than most players.  This forces his opponents to hit the ball at shoulder height (something that is uncomfortable and often results in more unforced errors).  

Rafa's shots tend to have a much higher margin for error (he has a high net clearance on his groundstrokes), so he tends to not beat himself on clay while simultaneously retrieving nearly everything his opponent hits him.  

Lastly, Rafa is a lefty.  Since most rallies are cross court, Rafa hits his forehand (his best shot) to his opponent's backhand (often the weaker shot for a player).  Rafa is able to dictate the play using these tactics to get most rallies in his favor.  And, if you happen to give him a short ball, his forehand usually disposes of the point.  

Navy Wolverine

June 7th, 2019 at 12:12 PM ^

Nadal dominates on clay for a variety of reasons. First and foremost, he hits his groundstrokes very hard and with more topspin than anybody else probably in history (Dominc Thiem may be close). The extra bite of the clay courts enhances this topspin by bouncing higher and deeper into the court. This drives his opponent back in the court often enabling Nadal to take the offensive during the point and Nadal is the master at moving his opponent around to the point where he either has an opening to hit a winner or makes his opponent miss. 

Nadal's forehand is particularly devastating on clay and the fact he plays left handed also benefits him because he often hits it cross court to the right-hander's backhand (he is actually ambidextrous and throws right handed which helps his two-handed backhand). Playing to Nadal's forehand on clay is almost always a bad idea but his opponent often doesn't have a choice because they are usually on defense just trying to keep the ball in play.

HelloHeisman91

June 7th, 2019 at 8:58 AM ^

If you like podcasts and this thread check out Dan Rubenstein’s, from “The Solid Verbal”, new podcast “Sports Wars”.  He simply tells the story of famous rivalries or grudges in sports.  Anway, the second story he tells is history of Federer and Nadal thus far.  It’s a fun listen.  

Here’s a link to the first episode. 

 

https://overcast.fm/+ReJpk9q_c

Nickel

June 7th, 2019 at 9:30 AM ^

It's pretty amazing. Has there ever been a sport where the three greatest players of all-time had such an overlap of their peak years? I mean any of these guys could be approaching 30 majors if it weren't for having to fight through two of the other three GOTs.

I'm a Djokovic fan so I'm pulling for him to complete another Djoker slam.

michymich

June 7th, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^

This isn't true. The USTA makes a major financial investment in tennis and the demand is there on both the mens and womens side. Look how many US players on the tour. Look at college tennis which is prospering.

 

Now, why are Americans struggling and they don't have a Sampras or Courier or Agassi? Cyclical plus the USTA was teaching the big run around forehand shot which was a mistake (Johnson/Sock), etc.

https://www.usta.com/en/home/pro/pro-media---news/american-men-dominate-atp-top-200.html

 

Nervous Bird

June 7th, 2019 at 12:59 PM ^

Yes, there are quite a few American men in the top 200. However, serious interest in the sport is dictated by how many of those players are stars. I'd argue that none but the hardcore tennis fan can name any player outside of the top ten. So, kids who have some athleticism, parents who are only peripheral fans, are not interested in the sport. By sheer numbers (America is a large country), there are still plenty of tennis players. But, the top end talent is not there because as kids many picked up golf clubs. Sampras had a run of dominance (6 Grand Slam titles) that coincided with Tiger's ascendancy (1997-2002). Yet, kids were not running around saying "I am Pete Sampras", or wearing PS hats. Pete lacked the charisma and tennis did a bad job of marketing him in America. Therefore, America dominates the top of golf, and can't be found at the top of tennis.

Nervous Bird

June 7th, 2019 at 12:44 PM ^

I think the lack of American male star power, for nearly the past 40 years, seriously dented the interest of American youth in the sport of tennis. Sampras has been, by far, the most dominant American male player of this time, but he lacked the charisma to increase the popularity of the sport. Agassi had a good run (twice), and he had all the charisma needed (especially early in his career), but the majority of his winning came in the 2nd half of his career, after his pop culture star power had all but faded. 

Contrast American tennis with American golf. Golf was boring, dominated by foreigners, and lacked any American male star power for the decade following Jack's 1986 Master's win. Then, a young American male burst onto the scene in 1997 with star power and an otherworldly game. 20 years later, young American golfers dominate the professional golfing world.

As great as Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic have been for the past 15 years, Americans are somewhat myopic regarding the sports stars that they let influence them. Americans need great and charismatic American players or else they'll lose interest in the sport, and kids won't follow it or want to play. 

However, there is an opening. The big 3 are all getting older and the injuries have been piling up lately. The problem, though, is there are only 3 American males in the top 50. One is an old man (Isner #10), and two young, but promising, charismatic players (Tiafoe #34, and Fritz #42). Our cupboard is rather bare, but as Tiger Woods proved in golf... it only takes one player to rejuvenate an entire sport.

michymich

June 7th, 2019 at 1:15 PM ^

You can't get any bigger than Serena and Venus. How many top US women players? Off the top of my head you have Osaka and Stephens but it's not like they are dominant. In fact, are any of the women now dominant? No, because the depth is very good as it is on the men's side which probably explains why it is harder to dominate than it was 20 years ago.

 

Fed & Nadal are arguably 2 of the top 5 players of all time. Nadal is the best on clay and then Fed on Grass could beat anyone for the most part so right there you have cut half the slam opportunities.

 

Our debate is why there isn't a great American. Cyclical. It's a world sport. Did Fed get produced from Switzerland because it's their biggest sport? Stan? It happens. There will be an American who will inevitably come to the forefront and it won't be because of it's supposed lack of popularity. More people of color play tennis in America than at any point of our history including the Althea Gibson and Arthur Ashe era. Mal Washington and Donald Young come to mind.

 

Americans always like to come up with excuses. The fact of the matter is that it is a world sport and better talent has risen from different parts of the world. The number of junior tennis players in the US is phenomenal.

 

Here is a great article. Give it a read. Well done.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2018/08/27/special-report-strange-slow-death-american-mens-tennis-us/

 

 

 

Nervous Bird

June 7th, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^

First, I'm not making excuses, I'm providing an explanation. Next, it's patently unfair to compare women's sports with men's sports in this country. Sports are not as big of a phenomenon/obsession with women/girls in the country as sports is with boys. Even still, the Williams sisters impact on the popularity of the sport is quite apparent. Osaka is Number 1 in the world! Sloane Stephens is top ten and a Grand Slam winner. Add in Madison Keys, and you have more American women in the top 15 than you have men in the top 50. And, other than Serena, the American women are relatively young. From the article - 

A vicious cycle has also emerged where the longer America goes without a male tennis champion, the less likely it is young boys will pick up the sport. Very few would rather be the next Sam Querrey than the next Stephen Curry.

That's the exact point I've been making! The article touched on some other things, but I think this is the sine qua non of the entire issue. No stars equal no interest with the youth! Yes, the world has gotten better at tennis, just as they got better at basketball. However, at no point in the last 30 years has the best player in the world not been American (Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron). And, Tiafoe is an aberration. He got interested in tennis because his father worked and lived at a tennis center. 

Further, (from the article) tennis is no more elitist and exclusionary than golf, and we've seen golf explode in the last 20 years. Why is that? Star power! That's all it takes to regenerate the interest. And, maybe it'll be Tiafoe that does it. He has a flair. He's developing a great game. He's got an interesting story. All it takes is one and a resurgence will be upon us.

jbrandimore

June 7th, 2019 at 2:23 PM ^

I just think there's no personalities anymore - and that eclipses the fact that there are few Americans.

People liked the rage of guys like McEnroe, and Ilie and Connors ranting at the umps. This made a good contrast with Borg and Boris who were more stoic. It didn't make a huge difference that most of those guys were Euros.

Today's tennis is more subdued. Boring if you will for the average fan.

 

BeatOSU52

June 7th, 2019 at 11:23 AM ^

No surprise really that Nadal dominated this - he was the -700 favorite in Vegas and saw on twitter that Sharps were still betting that as good value 

Harlans Haze

June 7th, 2019 at 12:04 PM ^

Well, somebody's got to say it...The "greatest rivalry in tennis history" is eerily similar to another "greatest rivalry" over the past two decades. It really sucks if you're a fan of both losing sides.

Navy Wolverine

June 7th, 2019 at 12:50 PM ^

One of the reasons Fed had won 5 in a row over Rafa is because he hadn't played on clay for a few years.

No need to make excuses for Nadal dominating on clay. It's not like it is a rare playing surface - 30% of ATP tournaments are played on clay. It's also the predominant surface for all tennis courts in both Europe and South America. If anything, perhaps the one gap in Federer's legacy is his relative lack of success on clay.

Nervous Bird

June 7th, 2019 at 1:51 PM ^

Uhh, a solid argument can be made that Roger Federer had a run as the 2nd best clay court player in the world! He played in 4 straight, and 5/6 French Open Finals! He just had a Nadal problem on clay. He mopped the floor with everyone else for the better part of a decade. I'd be careful claiming that Federer had a "relative lack of success on clay". Plus, Roger has a handful of clay court titles on his resume. Clay is his weaker surface, but he's been very successful on clay in his career.

Nervous Bird

June 7th, 2019 at 12:13 PM ^

2nd set killed Roger! Up a break, then couldn't hold. Had a break point for 5-3, and then would serve for the set - NOPE! Then up 40-15, a point from 5-4, and loses 4 straight points on serve to lose the game. Nadal serves for the 2nd set, and basically the match. 

Federer admitted a while back that all the losses to Nadal on clay (4 Finals) had truly affected his game, and bled into the rivalry on other surfaces. With that wind today, the odds were simply too stacked against Federer's finesse game. Oh well, on to Wimbledon!

I'm running out of years to attend, but I'd really like to go to the All England Club and catch a Roger match or two during the fortnight. I figure Roger has 2 or 3 more Wimbledon's left in him. I better make plans sooner than later.

goblueram

June 7th, 2019 at 3:54 PM ^

I have attended 3 of 4 and got to see Roger open day 1 on Centre Court last year.  It was absolutely incredible.  Had I known early enough that Roger would actually play clay, this would've been the year I'd go to Roland Garros.

The best treat I got to attend was seeing Roger win #19 over Nadal in the 2017 Australian Open final where Federer began his comeback tour.  It was absolutely nuts.