still won't do shit on the big stage against real teams
And why's that?
Yeah, the US sure did suck in 2002 getting to quarterfinals and outplaying Germany only to lose on a handball on the goal line that wasn't called.
I'll concede that they can't do shit when playing in Europe. US just cannot win a single game on European soil, but fortunately that's not where the next two World Cups are being held.
I think 2002 was the most unique World Cup. First, it was in an area of the world not many are used to playing in. Second, that World Cup was notorious for its upsets. Argentina, France, and Portugal did not even make it out of the group stages. While I agree with you that the US did have a good showing that World Cup, I don't see it as the US is up to par with the other top countries in the world. Who knows though it is the first time they play in Africa so we can be surprised, but at the same time I highly doubt seeing them going very far. Not only do the players not play in great leagues, they don't have any competition in the area that really challenges them during the qualifiers.
The top countries in the world, I figure, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, Germany, Spain, England, maybe Portugal, maybe the Netherlands, no, we're not good enough to hang and won't be any time soon. Honestly though, if for some reason we were in UEFA and not CONCACAF, I think we'd still qualify for each World Cup. We're as good or better than 75% of teams over there at least. I don't think that 2006 showing is at all representative of where USA soccer stands. Just a bad draw and worse play. We'll make the elimination rounds this time out for sure.
If they were in any other region outside of Europe, including South America, they would qualify consistently. If they had to play in Europe though, I doubt it. Besides Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, and Italy, we would have a tough time against teams like Ukraine, Croatia, Czech Republic, England, Sweden, and maybe even Turkey and Greece. I do like the fact that the World Cup is not playing in Europe for the next eight years as that makes the playing field more open and isn't dominated by Europeans. I hope we do move on into the knockout stages, but we can only wait and see. Also if you are keeping up with qualifying, Argentina just got their asses handed to them 6-1.
I noticed that about Argentina, but nobody would say they're not still a top team in the world. Actually if you want a team in real danger of missing out, it's Portugal.
Portugal has a lot of problems, but it would be a shame to not see them qualify. C. Ronaldo, love him or hate him, is an amazing talent and would make the World Cup that much more interesting to watch.
Well, in this guy's defense, when I was living on campus with my roommate and his girlfriend, who was from Brazil, the World Cup was on one day and I mentioned the US team at some point. She just started laughing and didn't stop for about 10 minutes.
going to say the same. Jozy = profit.
Jozy also saved the day for the US against El Salvador, his insertion completely turned the game around. Especially impressive considering he's hardly seen any game action recently with his 2nd divison (!?) team in Spain.
What I can never figure out is why the top US players get relegated to the bench over in Europe, even on middling clubs. You're telling me on a top 20 team in the world there's only two guys (Howard and Demsey) who are good enough to get any playing time on even average European teams? I think there's got to still be some anti-American sentiment amongst European managers, ignoring actual results on the field as well as their bosses who saw enough to shell out the cash to bring the American players over. I wish the MLS was competitive enough financially and competitively to keep some of our better players in the states, because it really hurts the national team to have them just rot on the bench in Europe rather than get any experience.
There's a ton of xenophobia in Europe when it comes to soccer. In '02 after South Korea eliminated Italy, the Korean player who scored the game winner was cut by the Italian team he was on loan to.
I don't know, there are plenty of non-European players who have made huge names for themselves in the European leagues - Drogba, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Messi, Tevez, etc. People can take World Cup play very seriously, remember the whole debacle between Ronaldo and Rooney when Portugal played England in 2006? Rooney was telling the media he was going to kick Ronaldo's ass if he saw him at practice.
As far as Americans playing in Europe, the truth is we don't have any superstar good enough to play for Man U or Chelsea or Inter or whoever. And not all of our guys are rotting over there; Jozy is actually on loan from Villareal and Howard, Bocanegra, Onyewu, Dempsey, and Michael Bradley among others get a lot of playing time for their teams. Quite a few of the starters at last nights game are long-time starters in the MLS.
What's going on with Jozy and Freddy Adu over there makes no sense. And I'm betting Villarreal is kinda pissed about the team they loaned Jozy to not playing him at all -- they didn't loan him to rot on the bench, they wanted him to play. He could have stayed at Villarreal if he wasn't going to play and practiced with better players.
There are a few others besides Howard and Dempsey that get regular time though. Michael Bradley is a starter for his team in Germany (though they're currently sitting in the relegation zone), as is Steve Cherundolo when he's healthy. Jonathan Spector starts for West Ham in the EPL but can't seem to crack the US starting lineup in back because of HeyDude and Cherundolo, and the move to put Beasley at left back. In second tier top-level Euro leagues, Bocanegra starts in France's Ligue 1, Gooch starts for a team in Belgium, Jose Torres starts for a very good Mexican team (Pachuca).
You could tell in these last two games that Beasley hasn't gotten regular time for Rangers.
anything in particular you read to keep up on this stuff?
www.soccerbyives.net is a good place to start
American players are geared more toward internationals and aren't as good in the domestic game.
Jozy did a great job of being in the right place at the right time and finishing. I love how he muscles his way through defenders to get open for the ball. His third goal was pretty soft (and had an ugly, ugly build-up), but he still had an incredible game.
I think I recall Eddie Johnson getting a lot of goals in 2006 World Cup qualifiers, then he just sort of flamed out. Hopefully Altidore keeps up the good progress.
jozy is great and will only get better. but watch out for a lot of our prospects born in 88 and younger. we have a lot of legit talent coming through.
It's nice we have a legit young talent like Altidore. I seem to recall him and Adu making a good tandem in the U-20 tournament in Canada a couple of summers ago, hopefully they can be the foundation of a strong attack for years to come.
Yeah, Jozy plays for Villareal which is a low first/high second rate spanish team, but definitely primera division, right now he's on loan to Xerez, which is the leader of the Segunda Division meaning they'll move up to primera next year if they finish in the top 3... FWIW
I do have confidence that US national team soccer will be good if not great in 10 years, the MLS, however will most likely have to wait.
villareal was the second best team last year to real madrid. id say they are better than what you're giving them crdit for...
I wouldn't necessarily call them a traditional powerhouse in the primera though
our players dont get more playing time abroad because they arent very good
it's not complicated
Read the thread. Our best players actually do get quite a bit of playing time.
oh sure, some do - i was just responding to the questions about why guys like altidore and adu sit on the bench so much
look i'm not on some anti-american kick - but let's not live in some fantasy world where our players are better than they are or where guys are getting shafted because people hate americans
bsb do you really think Altidore isn't good enough to play on a 2nd DIVISION Spanish team? Or that Beasley isn't good enough to play on a mediocre Rangers team? Donovan wasn't good enough to play on an average German team?
Any other top-20 international side would have their entire starting 11 and most likely their entire roster seeing regular playing time on 1st division clubs. The US barely has a handful. Something is not right.
Here was the United States lineup last night and their club teams:
Tim Howard - Everton
Frankie Hejduk - Columbus Crew
Carlos Bocanegra - Rennes
Oguchi Onyewu - Standard Liege
DaMarcus Beasley - Rangers
Clint Dempsey - Fulham
Michael Bradley - Borussia Mönchengladbach
Pablo Mastroeni - Colorado Rapids
Landon Donovan - Los Angeles Galaxy
Brian Ching - Houston Dynamo
Jozy Altidore - Villareal
If I'm not mistaken, all of these teams are in the first division of their respective leagues. Granted the MLS is pretty weak, but many of those players had the opportunity to play in first division teams in Europe, but wanted to stay in America to help Soccer grow here. Onyewu plays in Belgium, but is a regular starter for the championship team. Beasley plays in Scotland, but his team is historically the best one in their league.
Also, is everyone calling the US a top 20 team because of FIFA rankings? Keep in mind those rankings are generally worthless.
Yeah, but keep in mind, it's not that hard (relatively speaking) to make a first-division club somewhere. There are roughly 500 players in the English Premier League, 500 in Serie A, 500 in La Liga, 500 in Ligue 1, 500 in the Bundesliga - around 2,500 roster spots in just those five leagues alone. And there are about 45 other leagues in Europe and many more elsewhere. Maybe a better methodology would be to look at the number of Americans playing for Champions League teams. I'm sure the number is on the rise, but we still have a ways to go.
well i dont get to watch a lot of xerez games, so i cant really say. but obviously that's what their manager thinks. and he would know
teams don't sign players just to contribute to some anti-american conspiracy. players who don't play (or who play for bad teams) probably aren't very good. occam's razor
we'll see about the US doing anything in South Africa OR in Brazil in 2014... As far as "having the entire starting 11 on top tier teams in europe" if anyone responding to this thread watched any of the top euro leagues they would know that there is a much lower quality of player in the US, they just benefit from only playing one semi-elite team regularly in international competition.
By this logic, England should be by far the most successful international team in the world since they predominantly make up the most prestigious league in the world. And yet they've only won one World Cup and generally disappoint every year.
No one is saying America has the best players by any stretch of the imagination. And you don't have to win the championship every time for your team to be considered a success (See Michigan basketball team this year). I'd be plenty happy if the US just advanced beyond the group stages in WC2010.
Edit: I am spending too much time in this thread.
No, the people spending too much time in this thread are the ones saying "wutever usa sux", because they are spending more time than zero. Yours are the actual contributions.
word.
I hope we have players better than Beasley somewhere to call up and play in the World Cup. Beasely shouldn't be starting on his club team because he is not good enough and shouldn't be representing our country at this stage in his career. Like Agoos, he is hanging on at the national level because the coaches like what he could do four or five years ago. Agoos was Arena's assistant at UVA, not sure where Beasley's connection is but there must be a connection for him to still where the national team jersey.
Beasley played for Bob Bradley with Chicago Fire. Back then he was an absolute jet. His injuries have really taken a toll on him, as speed was his biggest asset.
It's one reason they put him at left back, because the Soca Warriors right wing Edwards is extremely fast and is relied upon to set up their big strikers with service. Beasley got beat a few times but usually recovered to block/deflect the crosses or get in the way enough that the crosses weren't very good. He's still pretty fast, even after the injuries.
I still think they should give Spector a shot. He'll certainly be in our lineup for the 2014 Cup, now that he's healthy he's in West Ham's starting 11 every week.
And in other news, Mexico already canned SGE. Hilarious. They're an absolute mess down there.
US plays Honduras on Saturday June 6 in Chicago. Plenty of tickets still available. Honduras just dominated Mexico on Wednesday, should be a good match.
Oh my God, I hadn't heard Mexico fired their coach, that is hilarious. I'm not entirely surprised given the Mexicans and their knee-jerk reactions combined with the fact that they haven't won in their last 5 trips away from home. The schauenfreude if they don't qualify will be amazing.
I will join you in your schadenfreude. Mexico is easily my least favorite world team - even worse than Italy they are. But they're damn near unbeatable at home, which is probably enough to get them in.
Does anyone else think that Jozy and Fredy should be playing together more often? I would like to see Brian Ching get benched for Fredy Adu.
I normally would agree. But Ching played pretty well behind Jozy. I'd let it go another game, just to see if it was the linkage between Ching/Donovan/Jozy that led to goals, or if it was just Jozy and Donovan. A lot of the columnists said that Ching being forward in almost a 4-2-2 role gave Altidore more space, that may not be there if they replaced him with Adu, who I'm pretty sure is only feared by Powers Catholic's JV soccer team.
I'm not even sure Freddy will be on the roster for the WC. He is a ball-hog whiner with an enormous ego. And besides his character issues, he still isn't that good, never lived up to his hype.
and was one of the best players at the u20 WC in 2007. I wouldn't call him a bust just yet.
Didn't he finish high school when he was (officially) 15? I smell a bogus birth certificate.