February 17th, 2022 at 4:28 PM ^
Aidan Hutchinson is a Top 10 Michigan player of all-time IMO and probably a top 5 UM defensive player of all-time IMO.
February 17th, 2022 at 5:49 PM ^
In my lifetime (born in the 80s), he's a top-10 player for sure. He's probably the #2 defensive player in my lifetime and I'd have him in my top-5 players overall.
IMO, he's easily the second most important player to any UM team in my lifetime. 2021 without Aidan probably looks a lot more like 2019 than it ended up being. The same way that 97 team is just a good defensive team that probably wins 8-9 games without Woodson, the 2021 team definitely loses a few if you remove Hutchinson.
True, unquestionable and bonafide leaders are rare. Michigan hasn't had one like Hutchinson since Woodson. They're rare players and personalities, so rare that it's basically generational. In fact, I think the biggest drop-off for next year is that loss of Aidan as a person in the locker room and program. You can't replace that because a guy either has it or doesn't. Most leadership comes from a collection of guys and that is much easier to replicate and duplicate. That's just a case of having the right type of people and a healthy culture in the program. Very rarely is there a single dude that basically says what they're gonna do, gets everyone in lockstep behind him and then does it. That can't be taught or faked.
Woodson had it. Hutchinson has it. That's it. I can't name another. There were a lot of good leaders, captains and such but in my lifetime there have been two guys basically carry a team to success and it's those two guys.
February 17th, 2022 at 5:50 PM ^
Don't get me wrong because I loved watching Aiden play. He dominated almost anyone lined up against him. Like you I would probably have him as one of the top 5 defensive players of all time at UM.
But I just couldn't put him into the top 10 all-time players on either side of the ball. Maybe it's a bias against defense, but without even counting those that I was too young to remember, my list of 10 all-time players would have to include (in no particular order):
Biakabutuka
Braylon
Denard
Hart
Howard
A. Thomas
Wheatley
Woodson
Of course, this list leaves off a bunch of people that were before my time like AC, Harbaugh, etc.
Now if we were talking about top 10 *favorite* players, I would probably have him along with Haskins in that list. But that's a different topic.
February 17th, 2022 at 6:13 PM ^
All-time players is not the same thing as favorite players.
Hutchinson deservedly placed second in Heisman balloting, made All-American, won the B1G, made the playoff, and was the key player that catalyzed the renaissance of the program. He is more important to the program than Braylon, Biakabutuka, and Thomas. He achieved more than Hart or Denard. He was more elite at his position than Wheatley.
I accept your caveat about a bias against defensive players, which is pretty normal in football due to the nature of the game. It's not just you, nor is it only people who are less informed; most people intrinsically have this kind of bias, which is why guys like Aaron Donald don't win MVP awards. So, in that sense, your list is understandable. And if it's subjective, no one hear can impeach your list for being wrong in most ways. But Aidan is an all-time elite Michigan player.
He might not be one of your favorites, but he is the most important, and IMO best, player Michigan has fielded since Tom Brady.
February 17th, 2022 at 6:53 PM ^
He might not be one of your favorites, but he is the most important, and IMO best, player Michigan has fielded since Tom Brady.
I actually said that he would be on my list of favorite players when I made the distinction between all-time players and favorite players.
But I do have to push back a bit on him being the most important player since Tom Brady. I think that honor would have to go to Denard if for no other reason than the fact that he single-handedly gave people hope in a period of hopelessness (stealing badly from Kolakowski here).
He is more important to the program than Braylon, Biakabutuka, and Thomas. He achieved more than Hart or Denard. He was more elite at his position than Wheatley.
I think that this might be the problem with how we think of lists of top players. It ultimately comes down to counterfactual analysis. What would Michigan have achieved this year without Aiden? Would not having Aiden on this team have a bigger impact than, say, if we lost Mike Hart in 2006? We saw what happened when he was injured for most of 2005. I just think that questions like this are impossible to answer.
And I'm not sure that being more elite at his position automatically places him above Wheatley, who was elite at a position where we had a number of elite players.
Braylon has the record for most receptions, receiving yards, and receiving touchdowns. He led the team in receptions, receiving yards, and receiving touchdowns in three of his four years, and those three years are in the top-10 all-time at Michigan for their individual categories. I don't see any objective way to say that he is less important to the program than Aiden.
...won the B1G, made the playoff...
Well, I mean, it is a team sport. Would we have achieved any of these things without Cade, Haskins, Ojabo (without Ojabo, it would have been pretty costless to double-team Aiden and dramatically reduce his impact.). But now I'm introducing counterfactuals...
And if it's subjective, no one hear can impeach your list for being wrong in most ways.
Ouch! I reject your reality and replace it with my own! ?
February 17th, 2022 at 7:24 PM ^
Alright, let's engage here. And please take my debating in the good spirit intended.
First, let's start with the proviso that we're talking about players who are all great and all of whom are beloved by the fanbase and by us individually.
Now:
But I do have to push back a bit on him being the most important player since Tom Brady. I think that honor would have to go to Denard if for no other reason than the fact that he single-handedly gave people hope in a period of hopelessness (stealing badly from Kolakowski here).
Denard "giving people hope" is good, but it is an entirely subjective feeling. And while he was perhaps as central to the offense as any player in Michigan history, the Michigan teams of that era just weren't that good. He did beat Ohio State, but that 2011 team wasn't nearly as good as the 2021 outfit. And the other seasons simply weren't up to snuff. When Denard left, the program was already in decline.
I think that this might be the problem with how we think of lists of top players. It ultimately comes down to counterfactual analysis. What would Michigan have achieved this year without Aiden? Would not having Aiden on this team have a bigger impact than, say, Mike Hart in 2006? We saw what happened when he was injured for most of 2005. I just think that questions like this are impossible to answer.
Michigan's defense overachieved in large part due to the dominance of the defensive line, and Aidan was the fulcrum of that unit. Ojabo emerged thanks to Aidan's dominance on the other side; the DTs were given the room to develop and be effective because of him. And his consistent dominance affected every offense we played.
And this team was better than the 2006 team, achieved more. Mike Hart was great, but none of his teams beat Ohio State.
And more to the point, Aidan's excellence goes far beyond what he provided on the field. He was objectively elite by any standard, the best defensive player in the country (in contrast, Hart, Braylon, etc were elite, but not the best offensive players in the country; even Denard was overshadowed by players like Cam Newton and RGIII), and an elite performer when it counted most. But his most important contribution was his commitment to a program that a fair number of people, including me, were essentially giving up on. He could have gone to the NFL and would have been a high draft pick, but he forsook the opportunity to be a leader at Michigan.
That kind of locker room leadership is always vital, but particularly so after the disaster that was 2020, when guys we thought were going to be leaders like Joe Milton knifed the program while still on the sidelines and the team appeared to quit against Wisconsin.
Take his production away and the team is measurably worse. Take his leadership away and the team doesn't even resemble the team we just saw. His contribution is irreplaceable in a way that the contributions of those other guys, while vital and great, simply were not.
February 17th, 2022 at 7:59 PM ^
I respect all of your points and I certainly hope I didn't come across otherwise. And I agree that we are debating about great players. And I really hope that this doesn't come across as denying Aiden's greatness in any way. He probably does belong in the top 10 of all-time greats at Michigan and I'm probably just an idiot.
But just a couple of points in the spirit of debate:
I think that we have to set aside team accomplishments. For example, it's true that Mike Hart never beat OSU. But we can objectively see his impact on the team just by comparing the 2005 season when he was injured to the seasons when he was healthy in 2004 and 2006. What was the impact of a healthy Hart and how does this compare to Aiden's impact on the team? I can't say that one was more important for the success that the teams achieved (and 2006 was a damn good season).
I should probably clarify about Denard. When I said he gave people hope, I meant that he was truly the only reason that Michigan was even competitive in many of their games. How many times did he carry that team on his shoulders? And again, I have to put aside team performance and the fact that Michigan teams of that era were not that good. His individual performances are the only reason that those teams weren't even worse.
I also noticed that many of the people on my list were multi-year (often 4 year) players. That may also have introduced some bias into my list. Aiden had a solid year in 2019, a lost year in 2020, and exploded in 2021. Maybe I would look at it differently if 2020 would have been a *normal* year and he would have had another year added to his career performance.
I completely agree about his leadership and athleticism. I have no doubt that he was responsible for the turnaround this year.
February 17th, 2022 at 4:59 PM ^
Oops. Wrong thread.
February 17th, 2022 at 5:13 PM ^
He's definitely been a big impact player, one at have been waiting for a long time. Let's hope we start to see more of his types in the coming years
February 17th, 2022 at 6:35 PM ^
Anthony Carter changed the way Bo Schembechler looked at offense and scored points.
Charles Woodson won the Heisman as a cornerback - beating out one of the best QBs ever to play college or NFL football.
Denard Robinson was the face of Michigan football at a time when we were staring down Rich Rodriguez. He single handedly kept Michigan relevant when it had no business being relevant.
Jim Harbaugh made Michigan competitive in nationally important games, winning a game he had no business winning after calling his shot.
These are legends of Michigan football that I’ve seen play, and Aiden fits in with them as an equal.
February 17th, 2022 at 6:43 PM ^
Total. Fucking. Wizard.
February 17th, 2022 at 11:48 PM ^
Name idea for Aidan's new podcast: "Flop Warning"