OT: A few questions for Denver Area Residents
I was hoping to just pick the brains of some of the Denver-based members because I'm thinking about relocating to the area. Skiing is a huge factor in this move. Any info you can give is appreciated.
-How feasible is it to drive from Denver (downtown or western suburbs) to the local ski resorts (A Basin, Breck, Winter Park, Vail) on a typical winter Saturday or Sunday? Is Google traffic remotely close or does it turn into gridlock more often than not?
-I haven't done much research yet but I'm wondering if I'd be restricted to the downtown area. Just curious if any of you are in the mechanical/aerospace engineering field by chance and know of jobs outside of downtown.
-How bike-friendly is Denver? Are there enough bike lanes to get around easily enough?
-How is Denver life in general (comparing to Ann Arbor)? How are the western suburbs (I hear Golden smells like a frat house 24/7)?
Thanks in advance.
February 12th, 2015 at 5:55 PM ^
Awesome post... when I organize after work trips to the Manitou Incline, the fit people are chomping at the bit to go like a pack of kenneled golden retriever puppies... the not so fit people are cussing me out. Something meant for team building and camaraderie has actually become quite decisive because of the binding trait you mention above!
February 12th, 2015 at 2:17 PM ^
Yeah, if more than half of this reply makes sense to you, I recommend not moving to Denver. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt since you only spent a few months here and were likely working your ass off, but I think the only thing small and provincial here is your perspective.
February 11th, 2015 at 10:38 PM ^
I've seen some good and bad info in here -- some makes me wonder if some of these folks live here at all.
1. Skiing is world class -- and the price tag reflects it now. I've skied all over North America, Japan, and Europe; whomever said Vail is the best is either smoking crack or lights the kindling on their fires with 100 dollar bills. The Kardashians go to Vail. Fuck Vail.
2. Crested Butte is not in the SW of the state -- it's more central. I believe the best skiing can be found SW. Wolf Creek is my all-time fave just about anywhere in the world but plan on a 5-hour drive in good weather to get there. For every exceptional powder day in Summit, that's the norm when the snow is falling (up to 400"/year in WC). I make it a weekend trip at the end of the season every year.
3. A-Basin and Copper are the friendliest in Summit County. Loveland is a great value and saves you from having to summit the pass when the drive sucks. The top of Loveland pass to get to A-basin in a white out is not a fun drive at all.
I single them out because... A-Basin's ski school is top notch but that mountain only has 1 green run for all intents and purposes. The tele scene there (I ditched my alpine gear 2 years ago and telemark exclusively now) is unbelievable. You can skin up for free and when it's light after 4 PM, your dog can go with. I believe a poster mentioned that there are dogs everywhere in Colorado.
Don't forget the Beach at A-basin. In the summer, dogs, BBQs, skiing, skiing in bikini tops, live music, parking next to the lift, dominate the days!!!!
Copper is spectacular because their mountains are segmented by ability - East/expert, Central Village/intermediate, West/beginner... so you don't have to worry about your little scooters getting run over by a schussbomber.
A note about lessons. I take at least one every year. Ski schools here are not what you'd find at Mt Brighton for example. The terrain here is different. I've been skiing for over 30 years and still take lessons in Colorado. I ski 14ers and still take lessons. You'll learn shit you never thought you would and some of it might keep you alive. Suck up any misgiven notion about pride and take a lesson regularly in Colorado. Nancy Richardson (a West Bloomfield transplant) teaches at A-basin and Copper; worth looking her up!
4. Traffic is ridiculous. I'm comparing to driving in LA and Honolulu as well. Denver is worse!
If you don't hit Floyd Hill by 6:30 at the latest in the morning, you will crawl on I-70. Even in good weather. Part of the problem is at the bottom of the hill heading west, the road goes from 3 to 2 lanes. Instead of alternating cars, everyone tries to jam through at once. People seem to be willing to trade a few seconds of courtesy for crawling for an hour or more. US 24, US 285 and CO 9 is are still roads less travelled depending on where you come from.
I live south and I'm dating someone in Arvada. To get across town at 4 PM can take almost two hours -- between four and 6 lanes will come to a grinding halt between 4 - 6 and sometimes last until 7 from University to the stadium. The H1 in Honolulu moves better than that!
Definitely a seller's market in Colorado. But there still are pockets of niceness -- even in the Western burbs. She bought her house in Arvada for $202K, it was built in the 70s but still has 2,700 sq/ft, a huge yard, hardwood floors throughout, and nice mature landscaping. Reminds me of a well kept but older neighborhood in some parts of Livonia or something.
Some non- sequiturs:
* I laugh at my property tax bill compared to Michigan
* I laugh even harder at my utilities bill compared to Michigan
* If you're a foodie, Denver is a hidden gem.
* If you're into the craft beer scene, it's like Disney Land/Epcot Center -- you cannot see it all
* Biking is super awesome -- bike lanes all over town, even along the expressways, and there's the very cool Bcycle which is really well supported despite politicians running their mouths about its doom and gloom. www.denverbikesharing.org/
* The weather is the best anywhere there isn't palm trees. If there is no wind and it's sunny shorts weather is anything above 50. It feels that much different than Michigan! It will freak your family members out. I have skied 9 months out of the year here, ride my motorcycle and use my convertible all year round -- outside of the high country, there's no such thing as winter storage or a winter beater along the front range. Golf courses are accessible all year round. Two Memorial Days ago, some Michigan-based friends of ours went skiing at A-basin and we all said eff it and caught a Rockies game on the drive back.
* Don't know about ME but aero jobs can be found south, central, north, way north, and west. If you have gov't experience and a high level clearance, all the better.
* I’m not a member presently but the UMAA appears to be actively supported in Denver.
I think that’s about it... hope it helps.
February 11th, 2015 at 11:15 PM ^
Your post is long and I can't speak to much of it. However, I will comment on two things:
"whomever said Vail is the best is either smoking crack or lights the kindling on their fires with 100 dollar bills. The Kardashians go to Vail. Fuck Vail."
This is pretty insane, for two reasons:
1. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's not also the best. Maybe it's not the best bang for your buck, but it could still be the best overall place to ski in Colorad.
2. The Kardashians go to Vail, so it sucks? Seriously? I'm going to assume you were just using the Kardashians as an exmaple of the type of people that Vail attracts as a reason why it sucks, and not literally because those specific people go there. If that is, in fact, what you are getting at, I still think it's pretty silly. This goes along with the first point kind of - just because Vail chose to cater to elite, this doesn't change the quality of skiing there. Sure, it means they raised the prices according to account for the clientele. But the skiing is still undoubtedly pretty great.
"* If you're into the craft beer scene, it's like Disney Land/Epcot Center -- you cannot see it all"
This is 100% true.
February 11th, 2015 at 11:44 PM ^
I guess well agree to disagree about Vail then... I just don't see it. A couple of posters said it's the most varied terrain in the State. Not at all. It's flat and crowded...
Which brings me to the Kardashain comment... that's the kind of people it attracts making it so crowded.
February 11th, 2015 at 11:53 PM ^
It's only flat if you don't know how to get around the mountain, and the crowds have literally nothing to do with the terrian.
Like I said, my favorite resort is not Vail for a variety of reasons. But there isn't anywhere else with the 7+ bowls and great front side skiing anywhere else in Colorado. But, sure, by all means, stay away from Vail.
February 12th, 2015 at 12:39 AM ^
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February 12th, 2015 at 1:38 AM ^
When you can drop in off of Prospector Ridge and ski off of the rock faces or hike the back of Alberta into the Chutes then I'll debate Vail's terrain with you. You're clearly uninformed. Just because Vail's longest run is twice as long or the acreage is double WC just means Vail is bigger not better
February 12th, 2015 at 1:40 PM ^
If you live in Vail then Vail is awesome, because you live in a mountain town with huge terrain and nice lifts. I bet weekdays are great.
However, I think the most important thing to appreiate about Vail is that it is no question the most over-valued real estate market in the state. It is not significantly more attractive than other mountain locations and A FREAKING INTERSTATE HIGHWAY runs right through the middle of it. It's fundamentals are extremely poor yet the money keeps on flowing in...
It is the very last place in this state I would invest in.
February 12th, 2015 at 1:40 PM ^
If you live in Vail then Vail is awesome, because you live in a mountain town with huge terrain and nice lifts. I bet weekdays are great.
However, I think the most important thing to appreiate about Vail is that it is no question the most over-valued real estate market in the state. It is not significantly more attractive than other mountain locations and A FREAKING INTERSTATE HIGHWAY runs right through the middle of it. It's fundamentals are extremely poor yet the money keeps on flowing in...
It is the very last place in this state I would invest in.
February 12th, 2015 at 12:37 AM ^
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February 12th, 2015 at 1:24 AM ^
Double post
February 12th, 2015 at 1:27 AM ^
Nobody cares that you don't care... I was offering an experience about something A-basin offers.
Don't be a dick.
February 12th, 2015 at 3:26 AM ^
Aside from Tahoe, I've been around most the U.S. However, Whistler is far and away the best place I've skied. Jackson is the only resort that could maybe compare, but it's still not much of a contest.
The impression I've gotten of Europe, though, is that the resorts, while massive, are pretty limited to above-timberline skiing and don't get the best of snow, either. Personally, I enjoy a lot of variety - bowls, chutes, trees/glades, long groomers, etc. and it seems like Whistler has the perfect combination of everything. Heck, with a 5300' vertical and over 8,000 acres, it may even stack up to Europe in terms of size.
So basically, my question is whether or not skiing outside of North America is a must-do at some point? Or would you say a place like Whistler is about as good as it gets?
Many thanks
February 12th, 2015 at 12:38 PM ^
Pretty much +1 on everyhing you said. Whistler and Blackcomb is/has all that.
I haven't been to Tahoe (or South America) yet -- one day though! :)
Skiing in Northern Italy I think is nice experience, it's not always the icy above timberline skiing. Cortina d' Ampezzo and Cervino have what you're looking for! With Cervino, you can also duck into Switzerland and your pass from Italy applies there too. I did part of my MBA in France, like you mentioned I saw lots of above treeline and varied snow.
Regarding Japan, I lived in Aomori and in the Tohoku region, there are ski hills everywhere. But they are smaller, 1 or two volcanoes, 5 - 10 runs. The snow gets icy. But I did enjoy the night skiing after a busy day at the office, being able to take the train when roads weren't good (which is often as you don't see municipal plows), and a hot bowl of noodles and a big beer for 500 - 700 Yen (versus the $15 cheeseburger in Summit). All the terrain in Tohoku is mostly the same; symmetrical cone shaped hills. Backcountry skiing near Lake Towada (and staying in one of two huts in the Hakkoda Range) is definitely the exception; the wind forms the deep snow into the craziest of sculptures.
Hokkaido on the other hand is a completely different ball game. Bigger too. But not like big when we think of 4 - 5,000 acre places elsewhere. Niseko's snow is amazing. The lightest powder I have ever experienced -- like the finest down feathers. It never stops snowing during the winter there. I saw it snow for 30 days straight once... only stopping every 8 - 12 hours or so people could dig out before starting all over again.
There's no good answer to your question. I love to travel so yeah, ski outside of North America, you'll collect some great experiences. But then again, I run into a lot of people out here from overseas who come to Colorado for a reason. I'm always happy when I have sticks on my feet so it doesn't matter to me.
February 12th, 2015 at 7:26 PM ^
Thinking more about it, at the end of the day, it's probably worthwhile to shoot for making a few "ski" trips to Europe, Japan, New Zealand, Peru or wherever, if only for the sake of experiencing new, unique places. Doing a bit of skiing while abroad might even be a decent alternative to mainstream tourist attractions as a means to interact more genuinely with locals.
There are actually some documentaries on Netflix that follow pro skiers/snowboarders around the world, but with much of the focus being on cultural aspects of the places they travel. Definitely will have to dig around and find a couple to watch.
February 12th, 2015 at 11:51 PM ^
I don't take a second of it for granted. Thank-you very much.
Not to carry on too much longer but you hit the nail right on the head regarding travel: go for the culture, go for getting off the beaten path, go for meeting people -- having people invite you over for dinner because they think it's cool an American is in their town and speaks (or tries to speak) their language still blows me away to this day. If you can combine that with some skiing, you're winning at the game of life. You cannot take it with you so while you're here you may as well go!
Looks like I have some NetFlix searching to do. Thanks for the tip.
February 11th, 2015 at 11:19 PM ^
There is one thing I would warn you about, moving to Denver. You've probably already noticed it in this thread. There are a lot of people who are downright hostile towards people moving out here. And there is a competition for who is the most local among people around here. For example, saying something like "you're not a true local if you love <insert anything: beers that aren't IPAs, Vail resorts, Colorado Springs, etc.>." It's very obnoxious, and I would imagine off-putting to others. The backlash to people moving here is something you'll have to come across and deal with here.
February 12th, 2015 at 1:45 PM ^
That is obnoxious but also an immediate sign to move along. I have been fortunate to link into a super solid group of native Coloradans and they are top-notch. It is not about where you are or what you drink, but what you do (and I sure as hell don't mean work).
Also, MANY transplants out here are from MI, IA, WI, etc...I would say the majority. You will fit right in.
February 12th, 2015 at 12:59 AM ^
Here is a perspective from a guy who grew up near Bay City, then Port Huron, then Ft. Wayne, IN. I have since lived in Estes Park and Colorado Springs, CO, western NY state, Boston, then back to Denver… I have been living here for 13 years and I own a real estate brokerage, so I’m quite familiar with the entire metro area. My wife and I also own a place up in Frisco (Summit County).
Saturday and Sunday traffic up to the slopes is really rough. Frustrating and unpleasant. In my opinion, the only way to do it, assuming you don’t stay up at the slopes, is to leave at 6:30 and return around noon. Sitting in the traffic is miserable after a long day of skiing. Traffic is terrible both Saturday and Sunday. Going up after 7am or returning after noon means a 2-4 wait in traffic. You can come back late on Saturday, around 8pm, and miss the really bad traffic. There isn’t a real good time to return on Sunday. We like to leave around 3pm on Friday, and return early Monday morning, if we just want to spend the weekend. This is true in the summer as well, as locals love to spend the weekend in the mountains during the summer too!
If you go at the right time, it should only take about an hour from downtown to the heart of ski country in Summit County. It takes us one hour exactly from our garage in Lakewood to our garage in Frisco. I think that is pretty awesome, after having spent many my earlier years driving 4 to 7 hours to Caberfae or Boyne, for the “good skiing”. The first time I skied in CO was the last time I skied in MI. If you live here, and commute for skiing, you will want to either get a pass for Winter Park/Mary Jane in Grand County, or a pass for Loveland (the closest to Denver, about 45 minutes) A Bay, or Copper, in Summit County. The other familiar names are great during the week, but just too crowded on the weekend.
Super bike friendly. Colorado is frequently named the most fit state in the country. Biking is big here!
I have been fortunate enough to spend at least a few days in every state other an N. Dakota, and I would chose to live nowhere other that Colorado. If you enjoy having four seasons, there is simply no better place on earth. When I moved here the first time, I had no idea the weather would be so good. The 300 days of sunshine is real. Even better, the average winter day in Denver is about 45-50 degrees and sunny. I was just back in Michigan for the holidays, and I can’t tell you how much colder it felt in comparison! The humidity in the Midwest makes the heat worse and the cold much worse. Colorado weather is much better in every season. Warm and dry in the summer, pleasant and mostly 60-70’s September until December, a couple of cold weeks in December and January, cool in February, then occasional big snow storms in March and April. The snow melts fast, as the hot sun is out the day after a big snowfall and usually melts 6-8 inches of snow in about 3 days. Denver and the mountains are not one in the same! I’m actually a college golf coach, on the side, and my guys usually miss about 10 days of outdoor practice, due to weather, between Jan 15 and May 15. All of the courses are open year-round, but close occasionally for snow.
My wife and I chose to live just west of Denver in Lakewood. It is a gentrifying area that is alive and only 10 minutes from downtown Denver. Many people in the area have scraped and rebuilt or completely remodeled the houses. An average 1960’s ranch house, 3 bed 2 bath, with 1500 SQFT in Lakewood goes for low $300’s, depending on condition. The home values are skyrocketing, and there is VERY little housing inventory. Golden is awesome, but pricey. The same house in Golden will cost around 400-500k, although only about 5 minutes from Lakewood. Golden actually sits right in the foothills, and is a cool town, therefore the price differential.
The biggest difference I have found in Colorado, is just the general feeling that the sky is the limit. This is still the Wild West is some ways, but is also the land of opportunity! I know that I wouldn’t have been able to have the same business success in the Midwest, although I still love my family and my Wolverines!
The people here are great too! I think it is one of the friendliest larger citiest in America.
Hope this helps!
February 14th, 2015 at 1:31 PM ^
Excellent summary. :) As I type this right now it is 53 degrees and sunny at 8800 feet.
The Denver temp? 63. Of course, glorious blue skies reign above.
February 12th, 2015 at 1:01 AM ^
-It isn't that bad of a drive. It is only about an hour (depending on weather and traffic) out to the slopes. Traffic is crap because the people don't know how to drive and the roads cannot handle the volume of cars.
-I am pretty sure most of those jobs are away from downtown. Downtown and the Tech Center are mostly financial and technical businesses.
-Outside of downtown it isn't too bike friendly.
-I cannot compare it to Ann Arbor because I have never lived there, but compared to the Midwest (from the Chicago suburbs) it is different. It's tough to describe the vibe here. I really don't know how to describe it.
Other...
While it gets cold and there is snow, it is usually really mild by Midwest standards. It is normally in the 40s and we are in a wave of upper 50s to low 70s. There is also no humidty which is nice, especially in the summer. Since it is really dry and it is a moderate elevation make sure you drink enough water.
With the way the area is set up the heaviest volume of traffic goes east and south in the morning and vice versa in the evening, so try to find a place the is in the eastern or southern parts of the metro area to go against the flow of traffic.
Make sure you have enough cash...housing is expensive by non-coastal standards and it is rising at a very fast rate. At the rate it is going it will be in the coastal league in a few years.
Even though there are about 3.5 million people in the metro area it feels a lot smaller than that. If you like and or are used to a larger and faster paced city this place will probably feel sleepy to you. In my opinion the pace is too slow.
If you head out this way there are two things that you should do on the weekend when you cannot hit the slopes...one is hike at Paint Mine Open Space. It isn't that well known, but it is pretty cool. The other is to head down to Alamosa. You got Blanca Massif, the Crestones, and Great Sand Dunes NP. All of these places will blow your mind, especially Great Sand Dunes NP. There is also an alligator farm and a UFO lookout tower in the area LOL.
February 12th, 2015 at 1:58 AM ^
There are around 10 very good resorts close by; all are about a 30-45 minute drive from the city. OTOH, it probably takes at least 1.5 hours get up to the mountains from Denver. So it's really easy to get some skiing in at a moment's notice in SLC, which is great for when it happens to be a powder day. Not to mention, Utah has the better snow, with most places there averaging 500" annually. Colorado resorts typically get around 350" per season.
In the SLC area, Snowbird/Alta is likely the best in terms of terrain, but can get busy on the weekends. Park City, Deer Valley, and The Canyons can also be crowded sometimes. However, you'll rarely have much of any lift lines at Brighton, Solitude, Snowbasin and Powder Mountain. I've been to all four of these and each are great, especially Powder Mountain, IMO.
All things considered, though, I'd personally rather live in Denver for the sake of being in a bigger city with a younger population and better social scene. Not that Salt Lake is bad in this regard, but Denver would have the edge. However, for the big time ski bum, Utah is the way to go.
My best advice for anyone that hasn't been to SLC before...make the trip for the Michigan-Utah game! Couldn't be a more perfect occasion to check out the city.
February 12th, 2015 at 1:48 PM ^
You nailed it regarding skiing. Also...DUH! Damn fine idea with the Utah game. Yes! Had not even thought of it for some reason...now locked on.
February 12th, 2015 at 10:45 AM ^
I've been here for ten years, I've lived in LoHI and now Wash Park. I work in the Tech Center, my wife works in high government, next to the Capital.
1. The first 4 years we lived here I bought seasons passes. Now, I don't ski. The traffic sucks, it just isn't worth it. Buy the Winterpark pass as it cuts off Eis Tunnel and and WP/Mary Jane are just about as good as anything sans Vail.
2. Tons of engineering jobs. Shouldn't be a problem, but you might need to move here first because I get a shit ton of resumes and begin by tossing out out-of-staters. Aerospace is booming and I've heard several thousands of jobs are coming. There are some HUGE companies here.
3. Very bike friendly, but some areas are better than others. Living near the Highline or Cherry Creek bike paths helps. Off the bikes paths it can get dicey downtown. I commute and race bikes, I do roughly 4000 miles per year...so yeah, I've ridden everything from Boulder to Castle Rock.
4. Golden is okay, it's kind of like living in A2, I guess. I like living in Denver because there's more going on. Great people here in Denver. Culturally Denver is underrated compared to other big cities. We have memberships to the Performing Arts Center, Nat Hist Museam, Bot Gardens...so plenty to do.
The city is becoming crowded and there's a crazy amount of traffic.
February 12th, 2015 at 11:05 AM ^
Is Euclid Hall.
Best food west of the Mississippi.
February 12th, 2015 at 11:06 AM ^
The Best Bike Shop in Colorado is Colorado Cyclist. It is in Colorado Springs which isn't too far.
February 12th, 2015 at 1:06 PM ^
If you want skiing and mountains to be a big part of your lifestyle, I strongly recommend living in Golden or Lakewood or similar. Boulder is Boulder, a bit further, but Boulder. If you cannot enjoy life in Boulder, you need to seriously check-in with yourself. At all costs, do not take a job in the Tech Center. That is not mountain living.
If you land a job in the western suburbs, you should even consider living in Clear Creek County. I live in Empire, which is perfect for skiing and climate (and quiet as we are two miles away from I-70), but not so much for socializing; again Golden is a damn fine choice overall. The smell thing is from the Coors brewery, but whatever...I think it not that bad at all relative to all the plusses. FWIW here in Empire I love morning and evening weekday backcounty sessions as the daylight hours get longer; having the Continental Divide an 18 minute drive is very good living.
No doubt I-70 is bad and getting worse for peak weekend ski traffic. People pass 470 at 5:30AM these days to avoid a one-hour drive turning into three or four. The return trip is equally as bad particuallarly if it is snowing.
In general, yes absoultely move to the Denver area. Great weather, sexy athletic women, and less touchy PC attitude about everything relative to A2. Integrity counts huge out here, but there is limited historical pain fossilized into the culture. The state exudes long-term opportunity!