I would love to see a breakdown of MSU busts in the Izzo era. While I was defending MSU in the context of the OP, I will say that the level (or lack thereof) of success of State products versus Belein's guys relative to recruiting expectations and even draft expectations (Mo Cleeves, anybody?) is far more damning than trying to predict and then compare the futures of the young guns who are making their way in the league now.
Yes, I misspelled optimism amidst a lengthy post discussing the NBA and that makes me stupid.
My user name is a joke from the movie "This is the End" and I'm extremely sorry you did not catch the reference.
On the other hand, in a post ragging on my spelling, you managed to misspell 'yourself' yourself (see what I did there).
You also seem unaware of how to properly use an ellipsis and couldn't be bothered to capitalize your sentences or use proper punctuation.
Congrats as well on adding absolutely nothing worthwhile to the ongoing discussion in this diary regarding Michigan and Michigan State players in the NBA.
Oh, and you sign every single one of your meaningless posts with something called jdon. I'm going to assume it means asshole in whatever language trolls speak.
I'm in total agreement with you on Burke although I'm not a big fan of the D Fish comparison. I didn't mean to seem so down on him. My point was that he appears to be a flop relative to his draft position, not that he was/is a flop. His main issue in my view is that he takes wayyyy too many 3's (something like 4.5/game last two seasons) and hits them at a horrible clip. I think that is a symptom of it being difficult for him to find and get his shots off closer to the rim due to size. I expect him to figure out how to find better shots from outside as well as improve his inside game, but so far this season he has actually regressed in that respect.
With regards to Green, prospects wasn't the best word. My intention was to portion off the newer crop of players from the previous generation. The OP seemed to conveniently be placing Green in the older players camp in order to fit his narrative. But yes, he is definitely not a prospect at this point.
So let me rephrase that ranking list as a ranking of the "fresh blood" Belein and Izzo have put into the league.
Stauskas is most definitely entrenched in the King's rotation. He's played in every game this season for them, and that is nothing to scoff at considering the success that team is having. And yes, Mclemore last year was a disaster and the chatter of him being displaced came most during preseason and few of the first games this year before Mclemore got it going.
Related to Stauskas but touching on your THJ point. He certainly has more athletic tools to eventually become a better defender, but Stauskas this year is a better NBA defender than THJ this year, straight up. I do think that if THJ didn't improve his defense at all that he would still enjoy a long and fruitful NBA career.
All in all I think we're on the same page with all of these guys though, not trying to nitpick and I enjoy the back and forth hearing other peoples opinions on these guys. Hopefully I didn't make too many spelling mistakes this time?
Long, long time lurker, first time poster, but as a diehard NBA enthusiast this post was so laughable I thought I'd chip in with the others on correcting what was not the greatest assessment by the OP.
The biggest reason for optomism on the Michigan side of things is that Belein truly looks to be putting more guys in the league moving forward, but it isn't as though Izzo will simply stop recruiting and developing NBA ready guys himself.
I think you severely short changed Shannon Brown and Alan Anderson in your assessment. Brown has fallen off the past two years, but both of these guys have played starters minutes for long stretches in the past few years.
I also think your assessment of the young crop is off base. I'm all for being biased to feel good about myself, but cummong.
Of the players we've seen enough of out of that group, no one even comes close to Green.
Trey Burke appears to be a bust as far as where he went in the draft, mainly due to his awful shooting percentages and lack of play-making. He'll definitely find a role for himself in the league but that role is not being a starting point guard on a good team. Someone in the thread compared him to Jameer Nelson and while their style of play is slightly different, I think Jameer in his prime is probably Burkes ceiling.
THJ is the best of the Michigan bunch right now, and he's definitely proved he can score at a very high level in the NBA. But when I talk to friends who cover the Knicks for a living, to a tee they all rag on his defense. I don't think that should surprise anyone who watched him in college when faced with comparable talent. He's also getting a lot of his minutes as a result of New York being really, really bad at assembling a roster and J.R Smith being J.R Smith.
Both Nik Stauskas and Gary Harris look to be legit. Harris had a dominant summer league, and the reason he hasn't gotten many minutes yet is because of all the talent in front of him in Denver. He finally cracked Shaw's rotation the last two weeks, and I'd be hesitant to judge his statistics based on ~80 minutes of basketball after the percentages he put him last Summer.
Stauskas probably deserves more credit than you gave him as well, as there were rumblings in Sacramento that he could actualy supplant Ben Maclemore (sp?) as the starting 2. Maclemore has really improved his game, but Stauskas is entrenched in the rotation of one of the most surprising teams in the NBA this season.
As to the rest - I don't know what makes you optomistic on Mitch at this point. I loved him in college, he definitely has the goods physically, but he wasn't given the opportunity to develop in college and carries some injury baggage. Maybe he's an allstar, maybe he's a towel boy, but its a little presumptuous to claim he'll end up in the plus column based on four d-league games.
Same goes for Payne in his d-league stint, and him being sent down has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with a stacked front court in ATL for a coach who keeps his rotation very tight. Much like McGary, we have no clue how his career will pan out so I'm not sure how you can assume one will kill it while the other won't.
Finally, GRIII - Excluding Payne and McGary, where we really just don't know what's there yet, I think this guy is your biggest flop of the bunch. Minnesota is extremely desperate at the 2 and 3 right now. Their bench players are essentially starting at 4 positions right now and that's been the case for weeks. In that span they've been horrible, and in that same span Robbie Hummel (!!) has logged significant minutes. The fact he's played so few minutes at the same time as a guy like Zach Levine (who has been pretty bad) is being allowed to develop concerns me heavily.
If I had to rank the prospects, I'd say 1.) Green 2.) Stauskas 3.) Harris 4.) Burke 5.) Payne/GRIII
Caris Levert may end up better than all of these guys - I see a little bit of Jrue Holliday and Kawhi Leonard in him and think this could be the case.
With Z-Bo and Crawford basically a wash, and MSU having a few role players still kicking, I'd say they have the slight advantage now and that moving forward both teams will probably have comparable talent once the young guys develop.
Sorry for the long post, I love this blog for great college sports discussion but always find the NBA analysis to be pretty effing bad and couldn't bite my tongue on this one.
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I would love to see a breakdown of MSU busts in the Izzo era. While I was defending MSU in the context of the OP, I will say that the level (or lack thereof) of success of State products versus Belein's guys relative to recruiting expectations and even draft expectations (Mo Cleeves, anybody?) is far more damning than trying to predict and then compare the futures of the young guns who are making their way in the league now.
many, many friends
Yes, I misspelled optimism amidst a lengthy post discussing the NBA and that makes me stupid.
My user name is a joke from the movie "This is the End" and I'm extremely sorry you did not catch the reference.
On the other hand, in a post ragging on my spelling, you managed to misspell 'yourself' yourself (see what I did there).
You also seem unaware of how to properly use an ellipsis and couldn't be bothered to capitalize your sentences or use proper punctuation.
Congrats as well on adding absolutely nothing worthwhile to the ongoing discussion in this diary regarding Michigan and Michigan State players in the NBA.
Oh, and you sign every single one of your meaningless posts with something called jdon. I'm going to assume it means asshole in whatever language trolls speak.
Love,
WeedIsTight
I'm in total agreement with you on Burke although I'm not a big fan of the D Fish comparison. I didn't mean to seem so down on him. My point was that he appears to be a flop relative to his draft position, not that he was/is a flop. His main issue in my view is that he takes wayyyy too many 3's (something like 4.5/game last two seasons) and hits them at a horrible clip. I think that is a symptom of it being difficult for him to find and get his shots off closer to the rim due to size. I expect him to figure out how to find better shots from outside as well as improve his inside game, but so far this season he has actually regressed in that respect.
With regards to Green, prospects wasn't the best word. My intention was to portion off the newer crop of players from the previous generation. The OP seemed to conveniently be placing Green in the older players camp in order to fit his narrative. But yes, he is definitely not a prospect at this point.
So let me rephrase that ranking list as a ranking of the "fresh blood" Belein and Izzo have put into the league.
Stauskas is most definitely entrenched in the King's rotation. He's played in every game this season for them, and that is nothing to scoff at considering the success that team is having. And yes, Mclemore last year was a disaster and the chatter of him being displaced came most during preseason and few of the first games this year before Mclemore got it going.
Related to Stauskas but touching on your THJ point. He certainly has more athletic tools to eventually become a better defender, but Stauskas this year is a better NBA defender than THJ this year, straight up. I do think that if THJ didn't improve his defense at all that he would still enjoy a long and fruitful NBA career.
All in all I think we're on the same page with all of these guys though, not trying to nitpick and I enjoy the back and forth hearing other peoples opinions on these guys. Hopefully I didn't make too many spelling mistakes this time?
Forgot to put THJ in those rankings, but right now I'd place him after Green although Stauskas and Harris could definitely pass him by.
Long, long time lurker, first time poster, but as a diehard NBA enthusiast this post was so laughable I thought I'd chip in with the others on correcting what was not the greatest assessment by the OP.
The biggest reason for optomism on the Michigan side of things is that Belein truly looks to be putting more guys in the league moving forward, but it isn't as though Izzo will simply stop recruiting and developing NBA ready guys himself.
I think you severely short changed Shannon Brown and Alan Anderson in your assessment. Brown has fallen off the past two years, but both of these guys have played starters minutes for long stretches in the past few years.
I also think your assessment of the young crop is off base. I'm all for being biased to feel good about myself, but cummong.
Of the players we've seen enough of out of that group, no one even comes close to Green.
Trey Burke appears to be a bust as far as where he went in the draft, mainly due to his awful shooting percentages and lack of play-making. He'll definitely find a role for himself in the league but that role is not being a starting point guard on a good team. Someone in the thread compared him to Jameer Nelson and while their style of play is slightly different, I think Jameer in his prime is probably Burkes ceiling.
THJ is the best of the Michigan bunch right now, and he's definitely proved he can score at a very high level in the NBA. But when I talk to friends who cover the Knicks for a living, to a tee they all rag on his defense. I don't think that should surprise anyone who watched him in college when faced with comparable talent. He's also getting a lot of his minutes as a result of New York being really, really bad at assembling a roster and J.R Smith being J.R Smith.
Both Nik Stauskas and Gary Harris look to be legit. Harris had a dominant summer league, and the reason he hasn't gotten many minutes yet is because of all the talent in front of him in Denver. He finally cracked Shaw's rotation the last two weeks, and I'd be hesitant to judge his statistics based on ~80 minutes of basketball after the percentages he put him last Summer.
Stauskas probably deserves more credit than you gave him as well, as there were rumblings in Sacramento that he could actualy supplant Ben Maclemore (sp?) as the starting 2. Maclemore has really improved his game, but Stauskas is entrenched in the rotation of one of the most surprising teams in the NBA this season.
As to the rest - I don't know what makes you optomistic on Mitch at this point. I loved him in college, he definitely has the goods physically, but he wasn't given the opportunity to develop in college and carries some injury baggage. Maybe he's an allstar, maybe he's a towel boy, but its a little presumptuous to claim he'll end up in the plus column based on four d-league games.
Same goes for Payne in his d-league stint, and him being sent down has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with a stacked front court in ATL for a coach who keeps his rotation very tight. Much like McGary, we have no clue how his career will pan out so I'm not sure how you can assume one will kill it while the other won't.
Finally, GRIII - Excluding Payne and McGary, where we really just don't know what's there yet, I think this guy is your biggest flop of the bunch. Minnesota is extremely desperate at the 2 and 3 right now. Their bench players are essentially starting at 4 positions right now and that's been the case for weeks. In that span they've been horrible, and in that same span Robbie Hummel (!!) has logged significant minutes. The fact he's played so few minutes at the same time as a guy like Zach Levine (who has been pretty bad) is being allowed to develop concerns me heavily.
If I had to rank the prospects, I'd say 1.) Green 2.) Stauskas 3.) Harris 4.) Burke 5.) Payne/GRIII
Caris Levert may end up better than all of these guys - I see a little bit of Jrue Holliday and Kawhi Leonard in him and think this could be the case.
With Z-Bo and Crawford basically a wash, and MSU having a few role players still kicking, I'd say they have the slight advantage now and that moving forward both teams will probably have comparable talent once the young guys develop.
Sorry for the long post, I love this blog for great college sports discussion but always find the NBA analysis to be pretty effing bad and couldn't bite my tongue on this one.