"Northwestern fans can be both heartened and disheartened by the loss to Minnesota just like how nineteenth-century resurrectionists were heartened when they pried a heart from a freshly-buried corpse and then disheartened it when they sold it to a disreputable anatomist."
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|5 days 16 hours ago||NFL guys||
Most of those folks listed were not head coaches in the NFL. Al Groh was a head coach for a year when Parcells retired. Callahan got two years after Gruden left the Raiders (went to the Super Bowl in year one, stunk when guys left/retired a year later).
The list of guys who had been head coaches for any period of time is just Carroll (wildly successful), Sherman, Wannstedt, and Jim Mora, Jr.
Mike Sherman went 9-4 in his third year at A&M, sharing the Big 12 south title with OU and OSU. In year four they went 6-6 and he got fired, but they lost to end of season #3 Ok. State by one point, to #5 Arkansas by 4, to Missouri in OT, to #15 Kansas State in 4OT, to Texas by 2, and to Oklahoma. A year later they won ten games under Sumlin and have had a ton of guys drafted in the early rounds who Sherman brought in.
Wannstedt went 5-2 in the Big East in each of his last three seasons. He didn't meet high expectations, but was hardly a disaster and they've been worse every year since then.
Mora is 23-10 so far at UCLA, and last year had a very young team that went 10-3.
Considering the programs those guys were at, it isn't a bad track record at all.
|1 week 2 days ago||What the fuck||
Graham played like an absolute beast under RR. He shared league MVP honors and posted 20.5 sacks in two years. Donovan Warren was first team all-conference, despite dealing with an ankle injury. Stevie Brown led the team in tackles and played very well as a senior. Brandon Minor played fantastically well when not injured (which unfortunately was most of the time). Hemingway missed virtually all of the 2008 season due to mono. When healthy in 2010, he did just as well as he did in a "pro-style" offense in 2011. Molk, Martin, and RVB were all freshmen in 2008. By 2010 Molk was a Rimington finalist, Martin was 2nd team all-conference despite playing half the year with an ankle injury (the same honors he would receive a year later under Hoke), and RVB was a very solid player.
Who was forced into a hole where they didn't belong? Those players all played at their talent level under Rich Rodriguez. The problem was guys like Ezeh, Threet/Sheridan, John Ferrara (2-star DT who had to move to offense and immediately enter the starting lineup), and a complete lack of safeties. So guys were starting simply because they existed, not because they beat anyone out for a position. I.E. the major roster issues left behind by Lloyd Carr and exacerbated by Mallett/Boren jumping ship.
There's a reason Arizona went to a bowl game in RR's first two years while Michigan didn't. Hint: it ain't because he just remembered how to coach football. And that's at a traditional bottom-feeder Pac-12 program (never been to the Rose Bowl) coming off a 4-8 season and losing an NFL QB (not to mention top three receivers and top RB).
Stop trying to justify your stupid opinion by spouting nonsense, especially when all current evidence proves your judgment to be nonsense.
|1 week 3 days ago||Not what happened||
Junior Hemingway put up virtually identical numbers playing in the RR spread (59.3 ypg and 4 TD in 2010) as he did playing for Borges in 2011 (53.8 ypg and 4 TD). Gallon was the prototypical "slot ninja" and his huge success all came under Borges.
Good players are good. The spread guys RR brought in on the line in 2008/9 (Omameh, BWC, Lewan, Schofield) are all in the NFL (as "pro-style" as it gets). His leading receivers at Arizona are two bigger guys.
The issues Michigan football has and had in the past are not style related. The team wasn't good early in RR's tenure because he walked into a broken program at numerous positions. The team isn't good now because the slow manball guys just aren't very good at football, outside of Funchess. The problem isn't that we are trying to find the next Jason Avant, but that the guys we have aren't Jason Avant.
Looking at the current roster and the size of the recent recruiting classes, any new coach is going to have a rebuilding job in the near future no matter what. Might as well hire the right guy.
|1 week 3 days ago||Makes sense||
Don't know that he would have a problem with the staff itself, but when the athletic director is saying you and many of your teammates had little/nothing to do with your group success (Lloyd Carr's seniors) and can't stop talking about the awesome guys who are going to replace you and many of your teammates (and then the new guys are 2-4), I can certainly understand being bitter. Especially if you scored 17 more touchdowns for Michigan than Dave Brandon ever did.
|1 week 3 days ago||Seriously||
Where is M-Wolverine when I need him?
|1 week 3 days ago||Not really||
One of BWC or Q-Wash would have been on offense, Jake Fisher (who was committed initially to UM before Dave Brandon told him he had no idea who his coach would be) would have been a multi-year starter just like he has been at Oregon, and we almost certainly go heavy on o-linemen in the 2012 class.
2012 your line is Lewan, Omameh, Schofield, BWC, Barnum/Mealer/Fisher (better than what we had, and playing in the same system that suits their skillset)
2013 is Lewan, Schofield, Fisher, probably Miller at center, and the best of the RS freshmen from 2012 class
2014 can't be any worse than 2-4 can it?
An intentional one year hole in the 2010 class (created by excellent prior recruiting of three future NFL draft picks in 2009 class and an immediate need for defense) was exacerbated by Dave Brandon's bullshit (killing the 2011 recruiting class for over a year by not supporting his head coach) and Hoke's lack of familiarity with the roster.
And maybe Josh Furman is still here instead of racking up more TFL and sacks than any Michigan player at Oklahoma State.
|1 week 3 days ago||Seriously?||
Hoke is 2-4 in year 4 on the job, got blown out by ND, Minnesota, and Utah (two of those at home), and just lost to a team that was treated as a complete joke when they joined the B1G this offseason. Things are way beyond worst case scenario bad (imagine someone predicting those results preseason), yet virtually everyone is resigned to the fact that he will at minimum finish out the season. And personally I'd be fine with giving him another year to be absolutely certain he isn't on the right track, especially if a guy like Jim Harbaugh isn't available.
I still hate Dave Brandon's guts. So do a lot of people, for myriad reasons. The students weren't chanting "FIRE HOKE". People didn't cancel their tickets before the season because they hate Brady Hoke, and certainly not because they want him shipped to David Bowie's basement in Labyrinth. People who still paid for tickets at "dynamic prices" weren't pissed to see them given away with a soft drink because of Brady Hoke. People don't hate the RAWK music because of Brady Hoke. They weren't pissed about not bringing the band to Dallas because of Brady Hoke. Need I go on?
It just so happens that the football team is in a ridiculous shithole right now, probably because everything Dave touches picks up some of his stink. But nobody is organizing boycotts and marching on the university president's doorstep because we lost to Rutgers.
|1 week 3 days ago||Separating||
Nobody is protesting the coaching staff either. A lot of people seem to want Hoke out at this point, but all the protesting has to do with Dave Brandon. He is the one the students wanted fired, not Hoke. Nobody is talking about showing up late so we'll can Hoke and Co. It all has to do with an AD that pissed plenty of people off (both of us included) long before it became apparent that his football hire probably isn't working out.
Fine if the team is desperate for motivation, but nobody is against them. Coke giveaways, RAWK, noodles, skyrocketing prices, and treatment of long-term fans are the problems, and they have nothing to do with the players or even the football team.
|1 week 3 days ago||One freshman or sophomore?||
So you've resorted to flat out lying. Nicely done.
|1 week 3 days ago||Destroyed?||
Harbaugh's team sucked for two years and was mediocre for one. So was Rodriguez's here. You claim some matter of degree means RichRod's team wasn't going to be good a year later when Harbaugh's became a powerhouse. Yet a coach you claim sucks coached that team and they won a BCS bowl. I.E. they were pretty good.
How did that happen? And I'm sure you predicted it would happen at the time like I did. And you predicted Arizona would be in the top ten, but that it would only be because of Casteel, right? You haven't just continued to argue against the guy no matter what the facts on the ground suggest, certainly? An expert prognosticator like you?
|1 week 3 days ago||You're right||
Michigan was fine then and we're fine now. Taking away Henne/Hart/Long/Manningham/Arrington/Adams/Crable/Mallett/Boren/etc. off a team that lost to Appalachian State is a recipe for unending success. Can't believe DickRod fucked that all up!
Don't stop believin'! The Hokester is about to turn the corner and Arizona is headed for the mountain. I just know it!
Honestly, what would have to happen (Arizona in the national title game? Rose Bowl appearance?) for you to realize that Michigan was the problem in that relationship? And please explain, how was a 4-8 Arizona team that lost Nike Foles to the NFL, its leading rusher, and its top three receivers in so much better shape than Michigan was when Rodriguez got here?
|1 week 3 days ago||Perspective||
One guy inherited a terrible team (Threet/Sheridan, Ferrara starting on the offensive line, etc.) and a broken program (no secondary players left by year three).
One guy inherited a Sugar Bowl winning team.
By year four one guy had the program set up for success but got booted because 3-9 is unacceptable.
By year four one guy has us at 2-4.
No one is saying Rodriguez had good teams here. Jim Harbaugh had two shitty seasons at Stanford and lost to WAKE FOREST in year three, with a defense that was statistically terrible. People with intelligence do realize that those teams looked nothing like his future teams would when guys like Lewan, Denard, Roundtree, Fitz, Gallon, etc. became upperclassmen and we weren't at a huge personnel deficit on defense. Instead of waiting one offseason to find out, you were mad about losing. As a result the program is where it is.
|1 week 3 days ago||Just like Jim Harbaugh||
He had losing seasons at Stanford his first two years and was 9th in the Pac-10 in defense in year three when the offense carried him to a mediocre record.
Boy I bet they're glad they fired that loser. It would never have gotten better because it was bad that one time. Returning starters and empty depth chart be damned, because Baloo is fucking pissed!
|1 week 3 days ago||We get it||
You were super pissed off that Michigan wasn't good at football and couldn't fathom it had anything to do with anyone but the head coach. You have been proven wrong. Dramatically and demonstrably.
Continuing to mouth off like you were right just because dumbass Dave Brandon agreed with you (Looks like he knows what he's doing, right?) is the most absurd kind of stupidity I've ever encountered in my life. The retard pills this fanbase took regarding Rich Rodriguez will apparently continue to plague us for years, if not decades, to come.
|1 week 3 days ago||Still mad at the guy?||
If our AD had not fired him after three seasons we wouldn't be the laughingstock of college football. But I'm sure you predicted Arizona would beat Oregon (both this year and last year), and that Hoke would run Michigan into the ground, so we should totally listen to your predictions and value your input.
|1 week 3 days ago||Disagree||
If you can make a case that the team will be good next year, you don't dump Hoke for just anybody. A comparison has to happen. While I don't particularly believe we're destined for a B1G title next year, I would still rather take a chance that I'm wrong about Hoke than bring in someone with a much less impressive resume (Ron English comes to mind as a comparison that fits in the same way Hoke did with respect to RR).
Dumping RR to get Harbaugh or a guy like Gruden is a much different decision than dumping him for Hoke. In the same respect, Hoke shouldn't be dumped when most of his starters are returning (even if it is later in the process and there are no Denard-like signs for high hopes) for just anybody.
|1 week 3 days ago||"He needed to go"||
No, he really didn't. Especially when the best replacement available was apparently Brady Hoke. You could have waited one year and either things would have worked out fine with Rodriguez or we could have gone after Hoke (almost certainly still available), Urban Meyer, Todd Graham, Gus Malzahn, Kevin Sumlin, Mike Leach, Hugh Freeze, or Jim Mora, Jr. (just going off the list of guys that got hired that year by other programs).
Instead we're in the shitter and Arizona is in the top-10 with a freshman QB and RB.
|1 week 3 days ago||Feelingsball||
There may be positives and things that are different, but there are a lot more negatives (pass protection is worse, receivers are a huge dropoff, Devin is making fewer plays with his legs, turnovers still out of control, etc.). Overall this offense is not as good. The results are there on the scoreboard every week.
Last year's offense scored a lot of points against a number of teams. This team has yet to do that and has shown no sign they are capable of doing it going forward. Last year we scored 34+ points against half our B1G schedule and ND. 24 against Rutgers is the highlight of this season. ND shut us out. The offense put up 3 points against Utah and 14 against Minnesota. What happens when this group runs into MSU?
Coherence is great, but it isn't leading to better results because the talent is just not as good.
|1 week 3 days ago||"Clearly weren't working out"||
11-2. You could have waited one offseason and things would have been fine. Instead you gloss over the shitshow program our former coach inherited because you were bummed your favorite team sucked at football. You were wrong. So was Dave Brandon. So was the overwhelming majority of our fanbase, simply because they couldn't handle the fact that Michigan wasn't good for the first time in their lives. Wanting MIchigan to have the best football team possible does not make me an Arizona alum/fan.
This thread is about hiring a guy with a 6-11 career record as the head coach at Michigan. And the response seems mostly to be positive about the idea. That is batshit crazy considering who we fired. Just like hiring a guy with a losing record was four years ago. Do you seriously think the guy who just beat Oregon for a second straight season, built WVU into a BCS bowl winning power, and left behind a Sugar Bowl champion team here isn't a better candidate than a guy who has won 6 games ever as a head coach? Or who has won a single playoff game as a Division II coach (the darling candidate on the front page)?
Sorry I haven't gotten over the dumbest decision an athletic director could possibly make, especially when idiotic members of our fanbase continue to defend it despite the shittiest set of results imaginable since then. You were wrong about everything, so excuse me if I don't give two shits about your opinion now.
|1 week 3 days ago||It isn't theoretical||
Dave Brandon added a bunch of new jobs, with a specific focus on marketing. Michigan was doing fine from a marketing standpoint for generations without those employees. People had heard of UM football. They recognized the winged helmet. They bought tickets every week.
Specifically, we don't need an army of people to market something everyone is aware of and happy to be a part of, especially when their marketing efforts do more harm than good. Pissing off existing "customers" while finding no one who will replace them unless they get the "product" included with the purchase of a soft drink doesn't add value and apparently costs us a lot of money, hence it is a prime place for making sweeping cuts once DB is shown the door.
|1 week 3 days ago||Not meant as snark or RR defense||
Just pointing out that this team lost some really good players on offense. People seemed to want to ignore/dismiss that in the offseason or pretend that guys like Darboh and Chesson were soon-to-be-studs. There was a lot of odd logic surrounding the offense that continues still (people saying we've improved or that they saw positives in getting totally shut down by Utah, Minnesota, and ND).
The simple fact is that this offense isn't nearly as talented as the one we had last year, and that one still had major issues at times. Hence the results we've seen recently.
|1 week 3 days ago||Overall staff strength||
I don't think coordinator location matters, but as you point out, having a set of eyes in the booth is almost certainly helpful. On defense, I would guess Hoke is second in command strategically but both he and Mattison are on the sideline. Who is in the booth? On offense I don't know who the 2nd in command would even be.
I am guessing MSU's defense benefits having Dantonio on the sideline and Narduzzi in the booth. RichRod's offense had Magee in the booth. I'm not sure who we have up there on either side of the ball or whether they have much input/impact.
|1 week 3 days ago||Just not the case||
Last year at this time we'd scored 41 against ND, 42 against Minnesota, and 34 in regulation at Penn State.
This year the most we've scored on a Power 5 opponent is 24 at Rutgers. ND, Utah, and Minnesota held us to 14 points or less.
This offense is significantly worse, because we lost Lewan, Schofield, and Gallon and replaced them with Hoke recruits who aren't very good.
|1 week 3 days ago||Cutting revenue||
Nobody goes into McDonald's and volunteers to write them a check because they have loved eating Big Macs in the past. That happens all the time when it comes to Michigan athletics.
You can bring in loads of dough without screwing people every chance you get. If people feel appreciated, the ones who have money are all too willing to open their checkbooks. Churches do fine financially without charging people for communion wafers.
Dave Brandon doesn't understand that because he is a dumbass.
|1 week 3 days ago||Keep fooling yourself||
I told everyone we'd win 10+ games in 2011 no matter who the coach was. People said I was nuts.
We won 11 games and everybody said it was because Hoke instills toughness and Mattison is a genius. I disagreed and people said I was nuts.
I said when he got hired that Hoke would be our Charlie Weis. He'd unite the fanbase because of his prior school connection and immediate success, only to be exposed as a sub-par program builder as time went on. People again said I was nuts (and perhaps a hater or butthurt about my boyfriend DickRod).
I said Rich Rodriguez would make Arizona stronger than they have ever been as a football program. People said he still played pussyball and would never compete with teams like USC and Oregon. Then he beat Oregon two years in a row and people are still acting like it was some kind of miracle or completely inapplicable to the situation at Michigan.
Please, continue to side with the people who are wrong every single fucking time and see where that gets you. Oh yeah, a team that is 2-4 and an athletic department in shambles.
Are you sure you don't owe me a buck, by the way?
|1 week 3 days ago||Beilein||
If we had fired him after three seasons, it wouldn't have worked out either. Are people still making judgments based on Dave Brandon's ability to predict the future, because last time I checked it ain't working out so hot.
|1 week 3 days ago||Wondered that||
There was that weird exchange between him and Tirico where Gruden said he wasn't taking any coaching job (seemed like there was some reason it was brought up besides just rumors). Brandon also mentioned "other candidates" who "made it about themselves" rather than about Michigan. I've always wondered who the other candidates were (seemed like a non-exhaustive search was conducted) and thought Gruden might have fit the bill.
As bad as firing Rodriguez to get Hoke was, choosing Hoke over Gruden under any circumstances is batshit crazy. Therefore I wouldn't put it past DB.
|1 week 3 days ago||Risky hires||
It is funny how our last coach's resume is so much more impressive than the guy who replaced him and seemingly every candidate that gets mentioned now to replace Hoke (outside of the Harbaugh brothers and Miles, if he's being mentioned at all).
Nice work, Dave Brandon.
|1 week 4 days ago||A solution missed||
Josh Furman has 7 TFL and 4 sacks at Oklahoma State. That is more in both categories than any Michigan player. And he's played in one fewer game. He's also broken up 3 passes, which would put him second on this Michigan team behind only Jourdan Lewis.
And though his eligibility would have expired had he stayed here, Ray Vinopal has as many interceptions as the entire Michigan defense.
|1 week 4 days ago||Gettin' shoutouts||
I'm internet famous, yo!