WTKA Roundtable 2/23/2017: B or O
MAAR been at the lembas bread? [Patrick Barron]
Things discussed:
- Rutgers is a bunch of Michael Currys. Wagner offense worked, Michigan took ton of open threes that missed. Free throw misses becoming a thing?
- TV Teddy had a dream where Michigan’s bench was too demonstrative. Big Ten really has to address Valentine. His crew may be worse.
- Don’t drift back onto the bubble.
- Free DJ on the offensive glass?
- Purdue matchups: Swanigan has no answer for “How is Michigan going to keep you from dominating this game?”
- Sam’s segue to Ole Miss. They went too hard too fast: Tunsil, Treadwell, etc., to put them under the microscope—may not be any different than how the rest of the SEC operates (nv). Brian outs the story behind my Stormtrooper cover last year to demonstrate how on the ball Michigan’s compliance department is. NCAA has to make it not be worth it.
- Best M hoops coach ever? Orr had fun/small teams. Frieder had a Romulus rule. Give Coach B that year with McGary or whatever and it’s a slam dunk.
- Old Man Craig remembers the good old days/bad old days. Mo gets a historically bad whistle.
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream on Audioboom.
Segment two is here. Segment three is here.
THE USUAL LINKS
February 24th, 2017 at 9:29 AM ^
Depends what exactly you mean by "best M hoops coach ever".
"Best" is subjective---most wins, best percentage, did most with talent, got the best talent, won the most championships, longevity, etc.
The question itself, though much fun to discuss (phrasing), is not very legitimate scanning different eras, and is not well-defined. It's like asking "Who was the best pro baseball manager of all time, best pro tennis player or golfer, best M football coach ever? It's almost fairer to ask, "who was/is your favorite _____________ coach/player ever?"
It's hard, if not meaningless, to argue anyone but Beilein with a straight face using most the commonly accepted metrics for such a question. Orr would not trail by much, and I could easily argue Orr was a better game coach than Beilein. Freider certainly deserves consideration, and I respect what he did, though his offenses were laughable in their design. He might have been the best recruiter; the guy would have broken all records in sales for Ollie Fretter.
I also feel to dismiss Steve Fisher and Dave Strack in the discussion is a mistake.
Fisher wins the most NCAA Championships metric, put together the best team ever (Fab Five), was a superior game coach, and was not responsible for Martin's connection to Detroit kids, nor Martin's connection to Michigan. We need Detroit kids back, and Beilein seems to realize that in recent recruiting. In hindsight, Fisher got a raw deal given his accomplishments, and he may the best coach ever.
Strack's lack of longevity as coach probably dooms his chances here, but he deserves mention. Not only were his Final Four teams among the best ever, the man made Michigan basketball something other than irrelevant compared to football. He was, IMO, the best game coach of any mentioned in this post.
I feel it is time for a change, but for my money---BEILEIN.
February 24th, 2017 at 4:00 PM ^
...or maybe most anyone other than Ellerbe or Ozzie Cowles. Or Tommy, much as I liked him.
But a couple of years ago I went back and looked at (the remnants of) the NC game with Cazzie/Buntin/Darden against UCLA. Check it out and see if you think what we did made any sense. Doesn't it seem like Strack played UCLA's game? That he didn't take advantage of our size/muscle pluses?
But this para makes me want to go back and see what I can find on the mid-70s Orr teams. In my mind's eye, those were the best coached teams I recall, wringing every ounce out of teams with glaring limitations.
But, yeah, JB. I can go with that. Though/and, I don't think it is time for a change.
Craig
February 24th, 2017 at 8:25 PM ^
February 24th, 2017 at 9:06 PM ^
Definitely should have beat them at Assembly right before the tourney began. Let it get away in OT.
I sat in the row behind the M bench at the Spectrum in Philly in 1976 for the semi and final. Led by 5 at half; and I thought we would finally beat them that year, but Kent Benson was unstoppable in 2d half.
February 24th, 2017 at 8:57 PM ^
That NC game with UCLA we were in Florida on vacation and I was but a youngster of 11. I do remember that Gail Goodrich absolutely killed us. He shot the lights out, and we had no answer for him. We managed to take Bill Bradley's Princeton team is the semi, and he won the MVP, but we had no answer for Goodrich. I'll take a look someday to see what you mean.
Strack had his moments of bonehead moves, and he was under a lot of fire at the end, but he and Cazzie/Buntin/Darden made Michigan basketball something other than a mere afterthought to football season. You could almost taste anticipation waiting for Cazzie to steal a pass and fly the length of the court for a jam. Happened almost every game it seems like. Yost would explode. I'm not sure that Cazzie will ever be eclipsed at Michigan. Three consecutive Big Ten titles, the dude was absolute money.
Orr was a very strong coach, but was also under some fire at the end, and he seemed to leave to get away from the football-like expectations and pressure after the Cazzie era. His "aw shucks" demeanor wore thin with some. In my view, Orr was the best game coach of the coaches mentioned.
I respect the retain-Beilein crowd, and I would not espouse firing him regardless of any given year's record. And it is not going to happen that way anyway no matter how many jump on that bandwagon. I just feel it is time for a new energy in order for the program to move forward, especially in recruiting approach.
I suspect Beilein might want to keep going for a while though, and he deserves a say as to when he decides to call it quits.
February 25th, 2017 at 12:48 AM ^
...and enjoy your posts.
I don't think Orr left under fire. He took the ISU job, with a lot of misgiving, when ISU was willing to pay market value and Canham would not.
After Fisher was terminated Orr offered to return and coach UM for a year at no salary and help find the right coach to transition from the Ed Martin problem. AD Tom Goss declined the offer and hired Brian Ellerbe. Hard to understand.
February 25th, 2017 at 9:17 AM ^
Thank you. Same to you.
"Under some fire" just meant fan-base critcism was growing. As I can recall, you are right on the money with the characterization.
Goss did a lot of things that were hard to understand unless you make certain assumptions about him.
Things got so bad in the AD that many people quit or wanted to; I have a very close relative who was one, and was considering other options/offers until it was clear Goss would not last much longer.
February 24th, 2017 at 10:20 AM ^
February 24th, 2017 at 5:43 PM ^
For some reason you can never up/downvote the podcast post comments.
February 24th, 2017 at 8:19 PM ^
Thank you for the thought. Let's hope we pull one out tomorrow to lessen the drama.
February 24th, 2017 at 12:05 PM ^
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