Reframing our Rivalry with MSU

Submitted by Chris S on November 3rd, 2021 at 12:10 AM

First attempt at writing a diary, so let's start this thing off with a You Be the Michigan AD segment. How many wins in 10 years would you reasonably expect against the following programs:

  • Notre Dame
  • Auburn
  • Florida
  • USC
  • Texas
  • Penn State
  • Iowa

Michigan is one of the most historically significant programs in all of college football. We've heard plenty of Tales From Old Blue, whether from this site, or HTTV, or directly from our parents or grandparents. Sometimes, however, we have Only Child Syndrome with our precious baby Blue and fail to see that, if we were to dig deep into a dozen or so programs from around the country, we would find a similarly significant history. In fact, all 7 teams listed above might be on par with Michigan's history for various reasons (coaching tree, success as an independent, tv exposure, had Bo Jackson, etc.). And while our knee-jerk reaction to You Be The AD might be "We should win every game," the problem is the You Be The AD answers for other programs that place just a much or more significance on football would likely be the same. If every parent on planet earth thinks "my child deserves the best" then all but a few will be disappointed. Instead, "my child deserves what's fair" might be more realistic, even though "fair" isn't always a universally accepted thing.

Fair, in my opinion, would be either 50/50 split with those teams, or maybe 6-out-of-10. If we were Alabama the answer would be different, just like it would be if we were Northwestern. Beating a competent, not-going-through-a-coaching-transition USC team 6-out-of-10 years would be something to be proud of considering there are so many factors that go into winning a football game. And when your schedule mostly consists of programs traditionally less successful than the ones listed, 6/10 would probably set up Michigan with a chance to run the table every 10 years or so. I understand that someone else's idea of "fair" might be different, though.

Now let's extend that You Be the Michigan AD to include one more team:

  • Michigan State

How many times would you expect Michigan to beat Michigan State in 10 years?

...........

I have suddenly realized how unsympathetic it is to use the phrase "felt like I've been hit by a truck." I would guess most people who say that don't have the faintest idea of what it would feel like to be standing in the street, maybe bending down to grab a basketball that just bounced there, only to be suddenly run over by an inattentive F-150.

On the other hand, I don't think people who have been hit by a truck have the faintest idea of what it feels like to be a Michigan football fan.

To me, the most important factor in a healthy fandom is having realistic expectations. And this is where I think I differ from Dude Hit By Truck: unless something has been going very wrong, I would guess DHBT doesn't wake up saying "Mornin' sugar! I sure hope I don't get hit by a truck today!" It was probably just a normal one-on-one game in the driveway until it suddenly wasn't. But me, the poor Michigan Fan, woke up last Saturday thinking... knowing how much I wanted this win. Maybe more than any other game I can remember. And during the game... my God I was an absolute wreck. A slant expected to be a 1st down turned into a 93-yard touchdown, and a sack expected to be just a sack turned into a touchdown, then back to a sack - just a wet, fancy, Scottish sack.

If expectations are unrealistically high then appreciating the little successes becomes difficult, and if they're unrealistically low then... what's the point of being a fan in the first place? But sports has a weird thing where in that moment right before the opening kickoff, pitch, tip, faceoff, or whatever the hell it's called in rugby, the rational mind gets violently thrown aside by some lizard brain particles that are convinced We Should Win This Game! And this is completely okay. I expected Michigan to win the game, and anyone who felt any trace of hurt after the loss had that expectation too, at least subconsciously. It then becomes important to gain our rational mind back once the adrenaline of the game wears off.

The signature trait of football isn't the physical contact, or the calling-a-play-every-time thing, or the crowds, or the regionality, or Mike Leach's interviews, but actually the frequency of games. One game a week for 12 weeks is absolutely perfect. It's juuuust enough to keep it more relevant and on our minds than, say, golf or the Olympics, but not as saturated as basketball or baseball where individual games lose impact. Something happens for 3.5 hours (or 4 if it's on FOX), we get to think, write, reflect, read, and talk about it for an entire week, then it happens again. So as fans it becomes really difficult to set realistic expectations because of the insanely lopsided ratio of time spent watching the thing to time spent thinking about the thing.

My fandom for Michigan started at probably the perfect time to have a very confusing lens on both Michigan football and Michigan State football. The first year I ever watched was as a 1st grader seeing Charles Woodson win the Heisman and the Wolverines win a National Championship. I was raised to believe that Michigan was an elite program and MSU was a thorn that would snag once every 5 years or so. And my first impression confirmed this.

As you all know, this narrative did not hold as the landscape of College Football changed - with the BCS, then with national recruiting, then with Vince Young beating USC, then with the College Football Playoff, and other events in between. History's version of College Football was clashing with what was presently going on. And here's the present reality with our in-state rivals, with total wins from 2010-2019 in parenthesis:

  • Notre Dame (92 wins)
  • Michigan State (92 wins)
  • Auburn (87 wins)
  • Penn State (87 wins)
  • USC (86 wins)
  • Florida (81 wins)
  • Iowa (81 wins)
  • Texas (71 wins)

Michigan comes in right behind USC with 85 wins from 2010-2019. In fact, there are only 11 teams* with more wins than MSU over the decade. That... is absolutely nauseating to think about, but critical to understand. They can still be Little Brother, but, like, Daxton Hill is Justice Hill's little brother. If Justice thinks he'll beat Dax in a fight 8 times out of 10, then he is insane.

We would absolutely love to get to the point where our all-time record against Michigan State is reflective of what is going on presently. The problem is, oddly enough, Michigan State is employing people who decidedly do not want that. In reality, beating State 6 out of 10 times would be a very impressive thing to do in the current environment of College Football, and is a worthy goal to strive for whether we want to admit it or not. Once we get there we can talk about more frequent success. The game on Saturday gave me that miserable reality check the same way the 2018 Ohio State game did for my 1st grader impression of Michigan being elite. I just wish it was literally anyone other than Sparty we are chasing.

*Boise, Oklahoma, Ohio State, LSU, Georgia, Oregon, Wisconsin, Clemson, Alabama, Florida State, Oklahoma State. I also counted vacated wins because they still played the game.

Comments

KTown81

November 3rd, 2021 at 10:01 AM ^

Having two Sparty brothers, I've had to embrace this reality. Quite honestly, between football and basketball, if I don't talk about the programs as (mostly) equals, I sound like an out-of-touch slappy. I think what hurts and contributes to the misperception in my opinion is that we not only lose to MSU when they are better, we seem to also lose when we are better. But this analysis is helpful to show that aside from a couple of years, they've been legitimately good for a while now. The other thing is it feels like we're mentally weaker than the best teams -- we don't make that one play down the stretch to ice these games. (Gus Johnson parroting Mel Tucker the entire second half was a nice PR touch for MSU). We can blame the refs (legitimately) but at some point, we just gotta win the game.

Chris S

November 3rd, 2021 at 11:13 AM ^

I think what hurts and contributes to the misperception in my opinion is that we not only lose to MSU when they are better, we seem to also lose when we are better.

Agreed. That really stings too. In the past years it seems the mentally weaker stuff might be true - it's weird how we can seem to feel that even through a tv. But the feel I get this year isn't the same. I'm sure you played (or still play) sports and know how much one big win can change a team's mentality.

KTown81

November 3rd, 2021 at 4:03 PM ^

I still play sports (Ok, slow pitch softball), but I played baseball most of my life and I absolutely agree with one big win could change everything. Sometimes necessary to get over the hump.

I also agree the mentally weak thing may not apply this year -- beating Nebraska and Wiscy on the road were games previous teams probably don't win. I'm holding out hope we go into Happy Valley, handle the business, and then put together the ultimate effort and game plan to beat OSU.

I guess my comment stems from when it got down to crunch time against MSU, UM couldn't put the ball in the endzone, committed two turnovers, took a bad penalty, and started allowing huge chunk plays. Whether that's mental, physical, a combination, bad luck -- probably a combination of all -- it sucked and felt like the moment was in our guys' heads. 

I Just Blue Myself

November 3rd, 2021 at 11:59 AM ^

Dantonio was a good coach...better than Rich Rod and Hoke. The jury is out on Tucker, but he's absolutely trending in that direction. And as aggravating as he can be, Harbaugh is a good coach. Discounting the Hoke/RichRod years where MSU clearly had a better program, under Harbaugh I can't really point to any year where we lost to MSU to say "We we're better that year." Sure, our recruits might have been ranked higher, and we may have had more guys drafted, but looking at the end of year records/rankings, I don't think anyone impartial would say we were a better team.

In 2015, MSU beat Ohio State, won the conference, and went the CFP.

In 2017 MSU finished one game behind Ohio State in the division, and went 10-3 to our 4th place division finish and final record of 8-5.

In 2020 we each won 2 games.

Now this year remains to be seen. 

MSU dominated this rivalry in the 50s/60s...we dominated in the 70s/80s...the 90s we came out on top 6-4...we dominated the 2000s...they've essentially dominated the 2010s to now. It will cycle back.

SirJack II

November 3rd, 2021 at 1:08 PM ^

We recruit better than Sparty every year no matter how bad we are, and we're traditionally a decidedly better program. We should not think it's fine to beat them every other year, or even 6 out of 10 times. They're the lesser program within the state: Our program should be able to put Sparty in the position where they're the pesky shoulder-chip team we beat most years, and now and then lose to due to fluky occurrences. 

cactus

November 3rd, 2021 at 4:54 PM ^

This is the most bothersome thing to me.  Over the time frame that OP is working with (2010-2019), Michigan has an avg. recruiting ranking (per 247) that is nearly twice as high as MSU but both a lower number of games played and a lower win %:

MSU: Avg. Recruiting Rank 29.1 (!!) with a low of 37 and only once higher than 20 (17)

UM: Avg. Recruiting Rank 15.7 with a low of 37 (2015) and as high as 4

MSU Win %: 70 (132 games)

UM Win %: 66 (129 games)

And we saw it again in this game... when these two teams go up against each other either UM significantly underperforms vs. expectations given the recruits they are bringing in or MSU significantly overperforms (or both...) and what's more, over this time frame MSU overperforms everyone else on OP's list vs. how they recruit.  Over the same period, Texas' avg recruiting ranking is 5 and their win % is 55!

Iowa also significantly overperforms their recruiting, which averages 44.3 (!) with their win % at 62.

MSU is a really good football program and has been significantly better than UM for quite some time, especially given the players they bring in.  And I hate it.

SirJack II

November 3rd, 2021 at 7:14 PM ^

"significantly better than UM for quite some time"

This is part of the narrative: If State manages to keep up with or edge us in football, it feels like they're dominating. That seemed to be the feeling among Sparties in that "Hot Seat Vibes" article as well. I understand they did in fact dominate us through the worst stretch in Michigan football history (the RichRod and Hoke eras), but from 2001 until now it's a clean split, and under Harbaugh we've had 3 wins, 4 losses. Not ideal, but the programs have been about dead even ever since Harbaugh came. And the recent blowouts have come from us.  

cactus

November 3rd, 2021 at 8:45 PM ^

The part I was hoping to convey was not that MSU is like a dynasty or whatever… it was that relative to their recruiting they play us (and others over OP’s time frame) way more evenly or even better than they have any right to.  Given the supposed “talent disparity” we read about so often the fact that they have a 4-3 record vs Harbaugh is alarming.

Chris S

November 3rd, 2021 at 10:22 PM ^

I think their record (and Iowa's) might be a good indicator that recruiting "rankings" aren't a great representation of who recruits better. Similar to how AP poll, BCS, or CFP rankings aren't the best indicator of who the better football teams are. Judging by the results, it would be pretty easy to argue that State recruits better than Michigan and Texas.

Also something I found funny looking up those win numbers. Iowa won 80 games in 2000-2009, and 81 in 2010-2019. If that's not the most Iowa thing ever then I don't know what is.

Vasav

November 3rd, 2021 at 1:20 PM ^

I guess in my mind I split the narrative on MSU - like, last ten years includes Hoke getting owned by Dantonio. In my mind, since the Little Brother comment, there've been three MSU-Michigan eras: 1) Dantonio owned Rod and Hoke and beats Harbaugh in 2015, winning 7/8, with only 2009 and the one Michigan win being close. 2) Harbaugh owns Dantonio, winning 3/4 and only the loss was close.  3) Tucker wins two close ones between evenly matched teams, sorta like Rod and Hoke against Notre Dame in the Denard era. Infuriating. But no matter how you break it up, MSU has moved into the same place as Michigan of late.

Also - I'm actually surprised USC has been that good. Maybe it's recency bias in my mind. I'm curious as to who's got the most wins in the Harbaugh era and totally about to go look this up now. 

Anyhow, good work OP!

Vasav

November 3rd, 2021 at 2:16 PM ^

Yea I think I'd done something similar after the 2019 season, and saw the Harbaugh's M was a regular top 15 program, even with Wiscy, penn St, Auburn and A&M...and well ahead of MSU at that moment in time. No board post, just did it for my own sanity. Clearly 2020 would change thing.s May revisit it after 2021 - hopefully with happier circumstances around the program haha

Chris S

November 3rd, 2021 at 10:25 PM ^

I did it on my own for my sanity too haha. It just helped me (and probably you) to see where we are in reality at this time. Doesn't mean we are content, it just helps with expectations.

A few weeks ago I did another list for my sanity: 5* and 4.5* quarterbacks since 2015 according to 24/7's database