WTKA Roundtable 11/21/2019: The Title Remains It's Over Because It's Over
Things discussed:
- Craig feels bad for MSU, think they're not dead. The rest: c'mon man: Lewerke when he's off his back foot makes some terrible throws, and that's the best they've got.
- Did you see a single safety at 8 yards this year?
- Ed learns what happens on an RPO
- Shea is making pre-snap reads on the bubble.
- This felt like a Gattis thing. Sam: schematically Michigan is more 2018 Bama than 2018 Michigan.
- Brian: I don't buy it. Run offense didn't make sense at start of the year.
- (This goes on for some time)
- This is it for Michigan State, but the messed up bros at MSU don't have the stick to get rid of Dantonio.
- Urban Meyer's brackets.
- The defensive line: Sam's seeing Kemp since Iowa. No scrambles vs these ends—that wasn't true with Winovich or Gary. Boa constrictor D.
- Next year: McGrone, Dax Hill, replace Hudson with Barrett and LFG.
- Hoops: boards, turnovers, sample sizes.
[Player after THE JUMP]
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.
Segment two is here. Section three is here.
THE USUAL LINKS
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- Direct download link (right-click/save as)
- What's with the theme music?
Didn't one Michigan State fan ask you to do a weird sexual act once?
November 22nd, 2019 at 8:56 AM ^
Why isn't this showing up in the regular Mgopodcast feed?
November 22nd, 2019 at 9:01 AM ^
Brian picks some strange hills to die on.
November 22nd, 2019 at 11:12 AM ^
I'm shocked that what is a largely-irrelevant point became a major sticking point on a radio show for a segment.
November 22nd, 2019 at 4:56 PM ^
I literally started saying "STFU and move on" in my car. Such an odd segment
November 22nd, 2019 at 9:11 AM ^
Whether it was all Gattis or a combination of last year's and this year's stuff, a main point that's not discussed is that Harbaugh kept this thing afloat after Wisconsin. Tremendous leadership by the HC.
November 22nd, 2019 at 9:22 AM ^
I requested the Al Borges call out last week and I was not disappointed. Having Borges provide some analysis and input is great. Treating everything he says as fact is bad, especially given some of his track record. Sam (and therefore the program) is obviously very concerned with the optics of the OC/Playcalling situation and that is driving some rather ridiculous semantics arguments. I did like Craig/Ed laughing a little nervously in the background when Brian went off about Borges.
November 22nd, 2019 at 9:38 AM ^
I think this comment is spot on. The program is putting out this argument to back up this silly Great Man Theory version of events where Gattis is the man in charge and therefore all ideas must be from him.
The thing is, I doubt the program internally, and Gattis specifically, cares whether Gattis has gotten some help from Ed Warinner and Jim Harbaugh. I think this is all marketing.
Everyone who's in this business has to recognize a substantial portion of any sports fanbase aren't MGoBlog readers, the kind of thinkers who innately understand that collaborative efforts get contributions from all of the collaborators, not just the leader. Your demographic is men, and a good chunk of men are fragile-egoed cowards who need to picture all success as stemming from the Guy In Charge astride the Thing He's in Charge Of. This simple worldview helps them avoid having to think too hard about their own contributions relative to compensations. It's completely wrong and leads to problems, but unless you've got the VERY specific kind of audience we have here, if you're in sports you have to cater to that demographic. They want to hear who's in charge, and then they want to hear the guy in charge is the one who's got all the ideas, and Sam knows he has to serve these people and Al Borges appears to think that way all the time. I think this kind of backwards thinking drives Brian nuts.
November 22nd, 2019 at 10:41 AM ^
Honestly I think it comes from the other side - Sam is stanning for the program to ensure he retains access to those guys. I totally get why he does it but letting it devolve into what happened is 1) bad radio and 2) unprofessional.
Similarly, I'm on Brian's side of the Borges takes but you gotta know not to shit where you eat and let it go. WTKA wants people to listen to both the roundtable and the Captain & Coach segments, and if you're on their program you can't go off like that.
My take on the Harbaugh vs. Gattis offense: before the season, Gattis said no FB, no 6OL sets, period. So at a minimum short yardage is definitely coming from Harbaugh/Warriner. Regardless of whether or not Bama ran pin & pull last year, a significant portion of why it works here is that the players repped it a lot last year.
November 22nd, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
Hiring Borges was TKA's mistake. Just plain stupid. Why not have Matt Millen host a show on WJR?
November 22nd, 2019 at 4:25 PM ^
I think that would be fine if it was about analysis and not how to build a professional football team. The two are different. Just because Borges was bad at making the calls doesn't mean he isn't good at telling a layman accurately what is happening on the field. Entirely different things.
November 22nd, 2019 at 11:32 AM ^
This is true, though I'd push back a bit that MGoBlog is particularly enlightened on these matters. Lots of fragile egos here too, and just as much a penchant for overreaction and need for a clear chain of command/blame.
It does astound me that Al Borges is trotted out as some sage voice of reason and analysis of offenses considering how profoundly mediocre his have all been. I recognize sometimes people are better at reacting and analysis versus creating their own, but at the same time Al Borges having been in football for 40 years is as much an indictment of the Boy's Club/recycling/change-adverse nature of football as a compliment to his acumen.
November 22nd, 2019 at 12:23 PM ^
Agree completely, especially with the part about MGoBlog and us as readers of MGoBlog. We do not work inside the program and we do not have the whole picture. It is both egotistical and foolish to believe that everything written on this blog is 100% correct and to take it as gospel.
That being said, I hope that Sam has done his due diligence in terms of examining Al Borges's history as a coach. As you say every program he has ever been a part of gets worse the longer he stays there and the talent level declines too. He has never recruited and coached a successful QB. Wilton Speight is the best he ever had. Wilton had 1 ok-to-good year after Al was already gone and fell apart for a multitude of reasons the next season.
I can understand Sam wanting to defend a guy that he works with and probably respects, but the more he talks about Al Borges the more it sounds like he has been drinking the Kool Aid.
November 22nd, 2019 at 1:16 PM ^
I think Sam sometimes gets too much blame around here as a "Yes"-man, access journalist, as he has been critical of parts of the team and coaching staff that would be negative for his career. But he's probably the lead guy on the sports network in a college town, his other job is being a recruiting guy for said school, and he's one of the guys who has been given somewhat-limited access to the AD. It's natural to assume you wind up reporting what you see and assume that's reality, even if objectively it's a bit fabricated or manipulated to fit a particular narrative. That's natural - my view of Michigan sports is absolutely tinted by what I read here.
I just don't get why Al Borges is getting this level of respect. Like, Urban Meyer is a massive piece of shit and someone who could be hurled into the Sun without a tear shed, but he knows offenses and is objectively one of the best analysts out there talking about it. Al Borges might be a lovely person but he's not on that level, and that's sorta the level I'd expect to receive this type of deference.
November 22nd, 2019 at 1:54 PM ^
[adjusts tinfoil hat]
Al is friends with someone in the program. Who? Not sure exactly. A mutual friend of Mattison's I suppose.
Al is given direct information from the program.
Al comes onto the radio to give his "analysis."
Sam is confident that Al is correct, or at a minimum, telling the exact lie that the program wants told.
Now, regarding the notion that the correct "exact lie" is being told sort of gets back to the issue at hand. But I am not that worried about Al being wrong because he's a dunce.
[takes off tinfoil hat]
Al obviously has failed at multiple stops as an OC but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand offense. Does anyone believe Brian would be a successful OC at a D-1 program? I mean, Al has actually had SOME success.
I wouldn't listen to Al for advice on a game plan, but he can probably diagnose something that happened after the fact.
November 22nd, 2019 at 12:08 PM ^
That's some ridiculous overthinking there Seth. There is a simple reason why Gattis is given all the credit for the offense. Gattis was looking for a sole offensive coordinator job in the offseason. Harbaugh told everyone he was handing the keys to Gattis. How bad would it look to say they had to coach Gattis up because he wasn't ready for his own gig yet?
You don't say that about anyone subordinate to you, man or woman. You say you hired Gattis to run the show, and he's running the show; no matter that everyone who has actually been around a few years in the real world knows it's crap, it's still what you say.
November 22nd, 2019 at 4:06 PM ^
But WHY is what you say in the second paragraph true? Why do you have to say the stupid thing that "we all" know is untrue?
Seth is putting forward his answer to that question. Agree with it or not, it's a valid question to ask, and his answer definitely aligns with the shit I see every day at work.
November 22nd, 2019 at 4:25 PM ^
Because you don't make your employees look stupid or incompetent if you want them to keep trying their best? I cannot believe this has to be explained.
How would YOU feel if your boss said publicly you were terrible at your job early on but thankfully he and a couple other people have helped bring you up to speed.
November 22nd, 2019 at 4:55 PM ^
I've seldom seen someone post almost word for word what I would have posted, so I don't have to comment. The internet thanks you.
November 22nd, 2019 at 12:48 PM ^
JFC, I still don't hear where Sam said that Harbaugh has no impact on the game plan or offense. He is pushing back on the idea that Harbaugh has taken the offense back from Gattis and that Gattis is now just sitting around with his thumb up his butt. Probably he's pushing back on that because it's very probable that Gattis is:
- Calling all of the plays
- Creating the game plan each week (with Harbaugh's and Warriner's input)
November 22nd, 2019 at 5:44 PM ^
"Creating the game plan each week (with Harbaugh's and Warriner's input)"
When Brian said that second part, Sam jumped on him. Gattis is THE MAN, don't you know they ran Pin and Pull at 'Bama?
The vehemence on both sides is kind of dumb, but Brian's argument makes a lot of sense:
1) The run game early in the year performed poorly and was kind of incoherent (e.g. running a counter without running the base play)
2) The run game improved when it started incorporating more of what was successfully last year
3) Since 2 was not the initial plan, it's likely that Harbaugh and Warinner helped Gattis get it back on track. If Gattis was just porting the 'Bama offense, those schemes would have probably been there day one
4) This is actually confidence building, because it means Gattis is not a hard headed idiot and Harbaugh is invested enough in him to help him succeed rather than just ejecting him.
Sam's position that it was all about "execution" is especially dumb. There is no world in which running Charbonnet 30 times on inside zone and never testing the edges against Army (in a game we nearly lost!) was a good idea no matter how well it was executed.
November 22nd, 2019 at 9:38 AM ^
The first time I heard Sam quote Al Borges and every time since, I have wanted to reach through my speakers and punch him. Thank you Brian for calling him out. Sam has jumped the shark on being a program shill. It's embarrassing
November 22nd, 2019 at 11:30 AM ^
I spoke with The Nana yesterday. She’s a cross between THE_KNOWLEDGE and THE ORACLE (from the Matrix.) she believes Dantoonio is getting one more season and then he’s gone. Take it FWIW.
November 22nd, 2019 at 12:28 PM ^
As silly as this comment is I agree that Dantonio gets one more year and is gone after that. No matter how much the program is behind him they can't let this go on much longer than that.
November 22nd, 2019 at 1:01 PM ^
The whole argument was quite stupid. Brian's hard-on against Borges is pretty immature. If you listen to Sam with Borges, Borges does a great job of breaking down plays and explaining schemes. It's very enlightening. Yes, Brian knows a lot but his explanations tend to be jargon laden and heavy on shorthand which is frankly quite opaque and not very interesting to listen to.
The fact that Brian can't stand to concede any insight or knowledge on the part of Borges, who has seen more football than almost anyone and who's been in the actual trenches for a long time is just petty. Sam's show with Borges is good and for Brian to try and shit on it is unnecessary and frankly ungrateful to Sam for the opportunity he gives to Brian.
November 22nd, 2019 at 2:33 PM ^
The Captain & Coach is as much of a must-listen for me as the MGoBlog Roundtable is. I love both and prior to this week's Roundtable, would love to have heard Brian and Al Borges on the same show. Doubt that's in the cards now. Agreed that any D1 coordinator that has seen even occasional, moderate levels of success would have bucketloads of insight and analysis to offer the general public like me. Similarly, Brian does a ton of thoughtful work and analysis and I appreciate that as well.
As I was listening to Sam and Brian fight this week, all I could think was I wish that they would stop beating around the bush and acknowledge the real issue: Gattis's job security/employment. Sam (and many others) perhaps rightly fears that in the world of CFB, reputation matters a lot and he wants to make sure that Gattis doesn't appear to be a useless greenhorn who had to have the HC come in and save the day. I assume Brian wouldn't intend for that to happen either, but it seems like Sam knows that certain ideas can get out of hand in the public sphere and paint Gattis in an undeserving, bad light. I trust Brian's analysis of the run game and what he believes happened in-season, but I also trust that Sam knows a lot about the CFB coaching profession and that reputations need to be protected against facts that can get misinterpreted and used as weapons undeservingly.
November 22nd, 2019 at 2:55 PM ^
Can we please just get Brian Cook and Al Borges on the same show together? Brian has solid points, but Al has the credentials.
This would be incredible talk radio. MAKE IT HAPPEN SAM!
November 22nd, 2019 at 3:01 PM ^
Ever since the first episode of Captain & Coach this has been my desire as well! Would love it.
November 22nd, 2019 at 5:11 PM ^
This was billed as Brian "going off" on Sam . . . meh, they just disagreed a little.
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