Why is our defense still the nail and not the hammer?
Outside of Martin, Mouton and Roh (only when he is on the line) we seem to be "catching" on a good number of our tackles. I thought we were supposed to finally start playing faster with the scheme changes to simplify the reads. If we need better athletes out there, where is Furman or MRob? I am just not sure it is a technique thing for individual players, the fact we are adjusting to another scheme change which is causing too much thinking or this defense has been kicked around for the last two years and just doesn't have the swagger. Yes, UMass has 300lb lineman, but I also saw their freshman TE get off the line, deliver a blow to Kovacs and finish running his out. Yes, Kovacs made the eventual tackle, but that seemed to epitomize to me the mentality. Obi flashes occasionally and seems to be regularly be caught in the wash with both end positions rarely collapsing the pocket to deliver hits or pressure. Maybe this will just be the way we will play the rest of the year, but I would love to see us playing more downhill.
EDIT: Yes, we have freshmen playing in a couple positions so that is not the answer I am looking for. The front 7 should at least be fearsome to a FCS school.
September 19th, 2010 at 6:50 PM ^
Recruiting an entirely new defensive two-deep takes more than one year? who knew.
September 19th, 2010 at 6:53 PM ^
Well, Marvin Robinson is injured and Josh Furman isn't ready yet.
You can't just plug freshmen in and expect them to be good.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:20 PM ^
Nonsense, it works on PS3 just fine. Also, I'm pretty sure Michael Shaw is winning the Heisman next year. He is just awesome.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:31 PM ^
Yes yes and yes, I've felt for a long time Shaw had extreme potential to be a top gamebreaker in the nation. Once people start forcing Denard to hand off and lanes open up for him, Shaw will just explode. Mark it, Dude.
September 19th, 2010 at 8:53 PM ^
I did think Shaw would be a bigger part of the offense. Watching the replay it seems that Shaw gets the ball in tough spots.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:33 PM ^
Magnus: My non-expert view of the 3-3-5 is that it is at an inherent disadvantage against a team that runs up the milddle. My thinking is that if the offense has a tight end or blocking back, it has six blockers to take on the six linebackers/d-linemen of the defense. The box safeties, meanwhile, are not in good position to get to a running back who is running between his center and guard. The 3-3-5, then, is not a good scheme against a team that runs straight up the middle. Am I missing something?
September 19th, 2010 at 7:39 PM ^
Actually, the 3-3-5 is supposed to be good against power rushing teams since it makes the blocking angles more difficult. Mike Martin said something along these lines awhile back.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:44 PM ^
It's hard to get my point across without pictures, but I'll try...
You have 8 guys in the box (including the box safeties) and 6 guys between the tackles (NT, two DEs, and three LBs).
The alignment of the defensive ends makes it difficult for a tight end to have much effect on those DEs, since they're usually aligned head-up or on the inside shoulder of the offensive tackle. So on an I-formation play, for example, you'd have a FB, C, G, and T blocking a LB, a NT, a LB, and a DE. That's 4-on-4.
It might seem like an offensive advantage because there's no free defender to account for the running back, but you have that box safety and a weakside linebacker there to help out. In addition, all those bodies in a tight space doesn't leave many running lanes. If one defender can beat his block (and you have to count on that as a defensive coordinator), then he's there to stuff up the inside run.
The 3-3-5 isn't inherently bad at stopping the inside run. It's actually pretty difficult to run against. If the defense is played well, most runs should be stopped after gaining just a couple yards.
But...like I said...the defense has to be played well. We're not doing that right now.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:48 PM ^
If you have time to continue explaining things, what is wrong? Do guys look like they don't know their assignments? Are they just not getting off blocks? Misreading plays? All of the above?
September 19th, 2010 at 8:44 PM ^
I think "All of the above" is the appropriate answer, except for the part about not knowing their assignments. I really think that these kids know what their responsibilities are. But filling those responsibilities is a different story. Even Cam Gordon (a recent convert to defense) knows what he's supposed to do - he's just not processing things quickly enough to always make all the plays he should.
September 20th, 2010 at 1:11 AM ^
...IIRC it was the TE...Michigan did not know their assignments vs. the shifts of UMass. The secondary was told not to get beat deep (it looked like) and gave up massive yards underneath . I would much rather the CBs get beat deep on occasion than give so much space (I'll regret saying that I'm sure.)
UMass TD on Cameron Gordon in the 4th Qtr...Cam didn't bite on the route despite already being in the back of the Endzone (he didn't have to cover deep - just decide which way to turn. He just didn't cover on that play. I don't think he was processing so much as just not being aggressive.
I think it's lack of confidence, mental mistakes and Gerg not being aggressive (which he's doing to compensate for the youth.)
September 19th, 2010 at 8:14 PM ^
The 3-3-5 was run very well when RR was in WVU. They had statistically solid defenses with very poor recruiting classes in terms of rankings. We're able to bring in much better talent from much better high school rich states. So where in lies the problem? Our depth is for sure an issue, as is our inexperience, but on Saturday Gerg and company were completely out coached by UMass. I've watched the tape twice now and what I see are consistent fundamenal errors that are taught from the very beginning as a football player. Tackling was atrocious, ability to keep contain was a joke, awareness was poor as well. GRob's resume speaks for itself but looking deeper into it he was never around long enough to do it with his own players (on the college level) and in the pros the Broncos had one of he best rushing attacks in the league and some guy named Elway. GRob's defenses at Syracuse were nothing to write home about and had many of the same issues that we have here at Michigan. There has to be something that we're doing wrong. I'm willing to stay patient with the guy because I don't want to go through another coaching change, but if there is no visable improvement by the middle of next season then we have to search high and wide for a DC with very good roots that runs or is part of a defense that is consistently in the top 15. I think GRob will get it turned around, I just don't know how much time it's going to take him to do it.
September 19th, 2010 at 8:25 PM ^
The team is full of young/inexperienced players and yet you wonder why they make the kinds of mistakes that young/inexperienced players do. You seem to understand that the coach has a long track record of success. You can probably see the fantastic growth of individual players under his tutelage at Michigan (Graham, Brown, Mouton this year, Floyd, Martin, Roh, etc.). You have the answers to your question but for some reason don't want to believe that it is as simple as young/inexperienced players/teams aren't as good as seasoned veterans.
September 19th, 2010 at 8:29 PM ^
The inability to keep contain was really frustrating. It seems like the 3-3-5 almost invites teams to try to get the edge, so the inability to account for that is confusing.
September 19th, 2010 at 8:50 PM ^
a) We have no depth on defense.
b) Many of our defensive players are young and inexperienced.
c) The secondary is patchwork. Think about it - only ONE of those guys in the defensive backfield was actually recruited to play in the secondary (Floyd). Gordon came in as a WR, Rogers came in planning to play WR (then moved to CB, then WR, then CB again), and Kovacs was a walk-on.
To further illustrate my point, think about the Spur position. The Spur position consists of a freshman (Carvin Johnson) backed up by a redshirt freshman (Thomas Gordon) backed up by a former walk-on (Kevin Leach) backed up by a former walk-on (Floyd Simmons) backed up by a redshirt junior (Mike Williams).
Look at that depth chart and tell me why anyone might expect good things.
September 19th, 2010 at 10:38 PM ^
i know a great DC......this guy by the name of Ron English....remember him?
September 19th, 2010 at 11:29 PM ^
Yeah, English only gave up 34 points to the FCS opponent he faced when DC of Michigan.
September 20th, 2010 at 5:19 AM ^
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume sarcasm.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:35 PM ^
No you can't with freshmen but you'd think our 2nd year players would be much better. Look at Alabama true soph's and freshmen all over the field and they haven't missed a beat. We need to stop giving excuses for GERG. I don't expect any true freshman to dominate on defense but should we have gotten better from last year to this year? YES
September 19th, 2010 at 7:43 PM ^
Alabama's team is a product of oversigning.
September 19th, 2010 at 9:12 PM ^
Unfortunately, not just oversigning, but oversigning lots of four star and more than occasional five star recruits.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:44 PM ^
Yes, if there's one program we should compare our depth-challenged defense to, it's the school that oversigns by 10 every year.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:57 PM ^
Just looked at Alabama's two-deep on Rivals and they have three sophomores starting on defense (not five like us, and their second string isn't made up almost exclusively of true freshmen like us). One guy is a third year linebacker (blue chip recruit, of course) who got a medical redshirt despite being the starter last year to open the season. One guy is a corner who was a top-ten prospect in high school (not just at his position, but in the entire country). Both of those guys have four-star upperclassmen sitting behind them who they beat out for the job. The third guy is a safety backed up by two four-star freshmen.
In short, what the hell are you talking about?
September 19th, 2010 at 6:56 PM ^
As said above Mrob is hurt and furman is definetly not ready. Nothing against him...you cant just play true freshman and expect perfection.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:18 PM ^
As Bobby Bowden (I think) said, "sometimes fast players speed, facilitates them in getting out of position faster''. Paraphrasing but that is why inexperience in the secondary can be hazardous to your health.
September 19th, 2010 at 6:59 PM ^
If our D is a nail it must be the smallest out of position nail there is.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:01 PM ^
This fanbase is seriously annoying sometimes. Just enjoy yourselves, please.
We are 3-0 and ranked in the top 25. I feel pretty damn good considering the last two seasons... we have who we have and we are winning with them. The coaches are playing the best players available at every position. UGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:08 PM ^
Athletes and coaches are applauded when they stay on an even keel - when they don't get too high when things are going well and don't get too down when times are tough. We as Michigan fans don't seem to get that. Either the sky is falling, or oh sh!t we are going undefeated, and if not the coaches better be fired.
3-0. I'll take it.
September 20th, 2010 at 3:01 AM ^
At least we can say that we do have a better chance of going undefeated than Iowa, PSU or a lot of other teams.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:35 PM ^
its because of the last two season we feel this way. Last year everyone was focused on how much RR teams change from year 1 to year 2, 4-0 start looked like we were poised for a pretty good season. Then self destruction. This year could turn out the same way. I hope and pray it does not, but we need to have a sense of urgency. We must do everything we can to win and win well.
After the last two seasons there is no room for error or we will be looking at a ND like coaching shift. Its time to Go Big or Go Home!
September 19th, 2010 at 7:46 PM ^
100th on defense is assinine! I'm happy as can be about 3-0 but jeez with the talent we constantly bring in at this university you can't tell me we should be 100th. We're down there with teams that are laughing stocks of football.
September 20th, 2010 at 12:18 AM ^
Just because we bring in a lot of 4- and 5-star recruits doesn't mean all those guys are going to be good at the college level. The fact is right now we have a significant talent deficiency on defense. Just looking at the starters, we have an outstanding DT and a couple very good linebackers (Roh & Mouton); everywhere else we probably have a below-average player compared with the rest of the Big Ten. At a couple positions we are downright shaky. How much better can you really expect this group to be?
September 20th, 2010 at 8:10 AM ^
THIS IS MICHIGAN AND THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!! BLARGH!!!
September 19th, 2010 at 7:05 PM ^
while UMass is an FCS school, that O-line was bigger and more mobile than a lot of FBS programs. Including our 1st two opponents
September 19th, 2010 at 8:58 PM ^
That's why I am worried about teams like MSU, OSU, Wisconsin and Iowa. I keep looking at our D-line and their O-line and worrying that 5 on 3 is a bad start to any run play. UMass ran a lot of misdirection so that their big guys could more easily seal one side and bring an Olineman into the second level. It looked like our Dlinemen were being coached to crash to the side that the linemen were going; bad part of that is a counter would put 75% of our defense on the wrong side of the play.
On a side-note: interesting piece by the analysts during the game. GERG mentioned during weekly interviews that Peyton Manning's no-huddle taught him to put his 11 best players on the field at all times to avoid being caught in a substitution penalty or being exploited with a certain package that may have been on the field. Could this be the explanation for "multiple fronts" instead of "multiple packages" like LC's regimes used to do?
September 20th, 2010 at 5:21 PM ^
Worry is a wasted emotion. All the worrying, hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing in the world is not going to heal T-Wolf's ankle or turn Cam Gordon into a 5th year senior. The coaches are trying their best to conceal the warts on our defense, but there is no scheme that can instantly and completely overcome inexperience.
As fans we are worried about every game and, considering last year's late-season swoon, I can understand all of the stress around here. I am just not sure that things are as bleak as they appear based solely on the lackluster performance against UMass. Obviously the team came out flat in all three phases of the game. Sadly, Michigan has a tradition of playing down to its weaker opponents (and scheduling opponents that are not as weak as they were supposed to be).
The thing is that the offense has the talent (and people playing their natural positions) to overcome a sluggish start, while the defense and special teams are not talented enough and experienced enough to just turn it on whenever they want to. I am just not sure that this translates directly to our top Big Ten opponents. I fully expect the team to be highly motivated and well prepared for teams like Iowa, Wisconsin, etc., and aside from OSU, nobody in the Big Ten looks absolutely dominant thus far. Our defense is probably going to lose us some games this year, but our offense is good enough to win some games even when the defense is not playing well. I am going to enjoy watching Denard and the guys do their thing, and watching the defense improve as more guys gain experience, but I am not going to worry.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:08 PM ^
Dudeness,Thanks for a dose of reality. I just don't understand the people who want to know why our defense isn't any better, yet they have no understanding of the depth chart. If they just want to throw bodies out there, we have more players, if they want players with ability, they have to be developed. We are winning. We are 3-0 and that is better than most would have imagined looking at our schedule a month ago when T-Wolf went down. Stop looking at the glass being half empty and just enjoy the win.
September 19th, 2010 at 8:13 PM ^
For anyone to pretend they didn't know our defense would be a work in progress this year must have been living under a rock. When you think about all the issues between T-Wolf's injury to attrition plus already being thin at some positions I can't see why anyone is surprised. Not a huge mystery there. I have to say I was pretty fatalistic just prior to the season starting (my husband has had to talk me off the ledge a few times) and have been a little surprised that it hasn't been worse than it is right now, especially after combing the UFRs for the first 2 games.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:18 PM ^
We have 5 underclassmen starting and another 8-9 on the two-deep, and it ain't like they had to beat out a bunch of juniors and seniors for the spots. There is a reason we signed something like 15 defensive recruits this offseason. On top of that, our starting corners ended up being Rogers and Floyd (or true freshmen) rather than Woolfolk and Warren. They'll get better and could even be decent next year, but right now I'll be more than happy if they can just replicate a bit of the performance so far (24 ppg allowed while forcing two turnovers). If they can get the occasional stop we should be okay with this offense (meaning 8-4 or so is very doable).
September 19th, 2010 at 7:19 PM ^
I was hoping the team would be 3-0 at this point but 2-1 is ok. Wait...really?
September 19th, 2010 at 7:20 PM ^
Because you touch yourself at night.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:25 PM ^
are true freshmen/RS freshmen/sophomore and some of them aren't even ready to play D1 ball. Once they are ready, I'd expect Michigan defense to be good in a couple of years. The defense is still feeling the effect of attrittions from LC's classes.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:33 PM ^
What everybody says is very true about the need for development of the younger guys over time. Lamar Woodley didn't start out as Lamar Woodley NFL ready stud when he hit town as a freshman. Easy to forget that sometimes.
I still allow for the fact that we had a comfortable lead for most of the second half and there was only downside in showing off any new wrinkles or pressure packages to future opponents.
But I don't buy that we had the same energy or everyone to the ball hustle we had in the first two games. We will see that vastly improved on Saturday.
We'll be fine. 2009 was a year in the development process of the program long term and if anything the lessons and experience is helping us. The media that keeps saying that our struggles late season represents some historical trend, doesn't understand college football.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:33 PM ^
when everyone on the defensive line is held egregiously on every snap.
That being said, I don't expect our secondary to be any worse for the remainder of the year.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:37 PM ^
September 19th, 2010 at 7:47 PM ^
Even Brandon Graham would be struggling a bit more in this defense. We're not running the same front as we were when he racked up 10.5 sacks last year.
September 19th, 2010 at 7:47 PM ^
Our DE's have limited ability to upfield and contain. Roh way better at DE than at LB. We missed Herron in this game. We need an upgrade in the talent level at DE.
Our LB's still don't play good, fundamental defense against the teams that run power G and Iso.
Tackling by the secondary has to be better. Couldn't see what was going on in the secondary from the TV views.
I think Obi and Jonas both will have very, very, very bad scores this week in the UFR.
September 19th, 2010 at 8:39 PM ^
In a word its a matter of agression. The players can either have it, through a combination of individual skill, confidence in themselves and the system or it can be generated by scheme. Our issue with the first is that generally that means taking players who are skilled individually and getting them to play fast and as a unit. It's been stated repeatedly that we lack enough of those types of players for the first to apply. The second option is to scheme aggression, a la Rex Ryan and the Jets, the problem with that is you need to have a back line guy or two that you can trust without fail to limit big plays. Cameron Gordon may be that guy at some point, but certainly not yet. See Jones and Rudolph TD's in the ND game. That leaves us with the reverse of the Jets situation, in our case, we try and limit the major mistakes on defense in order to keep the offense in the game. Even if GERG's scheme/players allowed for more aggression, the potential tradeoff, an extra sack or two vs. an extra TD or two allowed, isn't worth it. They are so far behind our offense at this point that we play to that strength and hope for the best.
September 19th, 2010 at 9:25 PM ^