When did Hoke lose you?

Submitted by Rodriguesqe on

Simple question. I know, timing is weird with us having one last shot at salvaging a bowl game but the situation only embigens the question.

For me, the first dent in the armor was Penn State last year where it seemed like the coaching staff lost us the game. That was the first time I wondered if we had the right guys in charge.

The final nail in the coffin was Utah, which in hindsight doesn't look quite as bad but in context was unbearable.

But I think he lost me during the bowl game last year. Again, another loss that looks a little better in hindsight. But the team that showed up at that bowl game looked uninspired and unprepared. Sort of set the tone for all of 2014. Also, was the impetus for my username (and also explanation for the spelling--alcohol).

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jblaze

November 18th, 2014 at 7:00 PM ^

I would have been fine with a loss, but a close one. Going into this year, most of us thought 8 to 10 wins, with 10 more likely because of the schedule. However the shutout and utter incompetence had me texting my friends for Hoke's firing.

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TruBluMich

November 18th, 2014 at 7:06 PM ^

Nebraska game, after Denard got injured, when he left Bellomy in.  The team still had a chance to win the game.  Everybody knew the kid was in over his head, except Hoke.  There were several choices that could have been made there and he choose to stick it out.  Moving Devin over from WR or even Gallon as crazy as that sounds.

Normally, I'd call someone insane for thinking two WR's were a better option, but in that game, it was very apparent Bellomy was in way over his head.  Put someone in who isn't going to be overwhelmed with the enviorment.  Since then he has shown multiple instances where he failed to recognize someone was struggling and just left them in the game.  Seems to be a pattern, where he prefers to not hurt a kids feelings.  Instead of trying to find what will work to give the team the best chance of winning.

Maybe it was his only choice, but it has become very apparent that his coaching staff has done a horrible job of getting these kids ready to play.  That ultimatley falls on his shoulders and this was the first instance where I remember it becoming very obvious.

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urbanachiever

November 18th, 2014 at 7:00 PM ^

Minnesota this year for me. The writing may have been on the wall starting with Notre Dame/Utah, but the optimist in me was willing to chalk that up combinations of good defenses, a young offensive line, and Gardner being irreparably broken from last year. But with Minnesota, it became exceedingly obvious that Hoke simply can't keep up with what's going on on the field, and further that his players simply haven't developed anywhere near the rate of our competition.

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soniktoothe

November 18th, 2014 at 7:03 PM ^

U CONN got the ball rolling in my eyes. I decided he needed to go after Minnesota (as if I have any decision in this). Even over the summer I remember having a conversation with an OSU fan in which I said he would turn it around. She was like, "I don't know if that coach of yours is gonna hack it." "No, no. I think this will be the year he turns it around. So. Yeah. FML.

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Chuck Norris

November 18th, 2014 at 7:04 PM ^

Utah this year. That was when I realized that we just weren't a good football team. For those of you saying that "I never trusted him", were you honestly not behind him after we went 11-2 with a Sugar Bowl win, beating Notre Dame and Ohio State? I challenge anyone who says they wanted him fired back then.

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flashOverride

November 18th, 2014 at 10:36 PM ^

I doubt either that anyone wanted him fired after that year...but there were ominous signs that had at least planted seeds of doubt for me. I chalked up the unimpressive wins over the two directional schools to early regime, early season wobbles that likely needn't inspire worry. But at the same time I also did not jump on the Hoke train after UTL, as it was abundantly clear that improbable comeback had everything to do with Denard and nothing to do with coaching, and that with anyone else taking snaps, Michigan loses in embarrassing fashion.   

The wins over SDSU, Minnesota, and Northwestern were what I considered no more than meeting expectations for any Michigan coach. I had misgivings going into MSU and they were confirmed quickly: first tough road game and sure enough it's nothing like the team that started 6-0. It also looked to me that day that Hoke was probably not going to be Dantonio's match, in coaching acumen or intensity of feeling about the rivalry, which added another separate sense of dread. I tried to swallow those feelings with, "Hey, it's not like EL is an easy place to win, and even Bo and Lloyd lost their first games against MSU before going on to dominate them." But something just felt different.

Hoke then sandwiched two more "Meh" wins over Purdue and Illinois (yes, the latter on the road) around a trip to Iowa City. Alarm bells. Tough venue, sure, but again Michigan looked lost on offense against an Iowa team that was mediocre at best. Another tough road game, another egg laid. You can't win the B1G without going into a truly hostile place (i.e. Ryan Field doesn't count) and stealing one at least here and there, and while 0/2 certainly isn't yet a trend, my worries that he just didn't have the chops were starting to harden. 

The Nebraska game would be my first and pretty much only time being 100% on the Hoke bandwagon. At the time I was even willing to overlook the fact that turnovers and special teams disasters made the score a lot more lopsided than the game was, and just said, "Nope, fuck that, Michigan met a good team today and kicked their asses." All I needed was a repeat performance against an Ohio State team that was ripe for such an ass-kicking and on which Hoke had painted a target, and I'd be a full-fledged Hokeamaniac.

It was a nice day for late November, I fondly recall, and I was thrilled that my girlfriend's first trip to a game was going to be for a dismantling of the most hated rival I'll ever know. How could it not be? The game was at home, where we didn't seem (yet) to have to worry about sudden coaching lapses, the team was flying high after the rout of the 'Huskers, and, apart from a fluky win over Wisconsin, OSU looked awful, with a freshman QB entering the Big House for the first time, and an Adam Sandler-lookalike interim coach who certainly would not be staying on in that position next year. Sure, anything can happen in a rivalry game. Sure, the Bucks were playing to salvage their season and deny a BCS bid. But come on...seven straight. No Michigan team since 1969 should have been more eager than that one to absolutely rip the goddamn heads off their opponents. Yeah, not so much. Cathartic and all, but...thanks for that last overthrow, Freshman Braxton Miller. She got to rush the field her first game. Just barely. 

So the coveted Sugar Bowl bid comes. Less than 200 yards of offense, a special teams miracle, and an iffy call in OT follow. Nice win, Brady, I guess. 11-2 and yet I'm already placing most of my hopes for the future on the sheer inertia of the talent you'll at least be deploying (provided it's properly developed, but that's not a worry...right?). See you in Arlington in eight months, I'm sure it will be...gulp...um, a great game. 

 tl;dr - I can't possibly be the only one who came out of 2011 feeling like underneath it all something just wasn't right. 

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McSomething

November 19th, 2014 at 8:18 AM ^

He's right though. There were plenty of us that had those same misgivings about Hoke even in 2011. Especially for those that never wanted him hired in the first place. Some of those wins seemed to be despite the coaching, and those losses seemed to be entirely on coaching. And then Alabama proved to me this staff was in over its head and would never compete against the "big dogs." It wasn't that they lost the game, it was that they looked so utterly incapable of anything. Great coaches have gone into worse situations and started winning big in year 2. For us it was simply beginning of the "next year is the year" mantra that a few people are still trying to throw out even now.

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flashOverride

November 19th, 2014 at 9:03 AM ^

Oh, no, let me help.

How about, "I'm sorry I was never impressed with the hire from minute one, long considered him just a "program builder", i.e. he'd recruit well and never get into trouble, and didn't believe he was a general-like leader of troops into battle ala Meyer/Saban, and felt my 'We probably won't be embarrassed with this guy, but forget about a National Championship" was more or less confirmed after his first season. It makes me really sad when I upset Hoke apologists, please accept my sincerest apologies." 

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flashOverride

November 19th, 2014 at 9:32 AM ^

It's not like I'm saying I had abandoned hope and completely given up on the guy. I'm saying beneath the 11-2 veneer, I saw cracks in the armor. You're right, he was recruiting well, and I said as much. But that's precisely what I meant: I was already pinning my hopes on that recruiting alone. The reason for that was because I'd seen nothing that told me he could outcoach his counterpart well enough to ever beat one who was fielding an equal or better team. My hope was simply that he'd recruit so well he'd assemble a team that would be so good it would be impossible to not win with, because he just wasn't a good enough game day coach to win with anything less.

I saw a guy who was going to at least take care of business at home against all but the elite (ha!), was going to look a lot better than he was by usually dominating mediocre B1G opponents on the road, would likely go about .500 in bowls, was probably never going to beat an elite team, and most importantly, could plan on losing more often than winning against OSU and MSU. 9-4/10-3 was the ceiling, with a B1G Championship maybe coming once or twice, in years when one or both of OSU and MSU were down. He got to 11-2 once because of a pretty favorable schedule, OSU was a train wreck, and he had one special QB (who likely would have won a Heisman in an offense that utilized him properly). 

Hell, with hindsight you could say I was even giving him the benefit of the doubt, because as I indicated above, I considered it a given that he'd at least develop his players well enough. 

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westwardwolverine

November 19th, 2014 at 9:08 AM ^

Not really. People who understood that we were playing with a QB who had just learned how to throw and a defense starting a paper cup and a snow shovel in the secondary figured that a team returning 20 starters and a new DC were pretty much a lock to win 10 games. Especially after Tressel went down. 

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maizenblue87

November 18th, 2014 at 7:04 PM ^

Minnesota this year. Before the concussion, Morris was already hurt and I was screaming at the TV (is that irrational?) for him to be replaced. When the rest unfolded, I thought "fuck it, I don't want him as Michigan's coach". I don't buy the BS that it wasn't Hoke's responsibility. The buck stops with him.

Joined: 06/22/2011

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GoBLUinTX

November 18th, 2014 at 7:04 PM ^

The offense wasn't terrific against Appy St, the score notwithstanding, but I chalked that up to being the first game. When the offense utterly failed against ND, a team playing short handed on defense, and a team they handled the previous year, I knew then a horrible mistake had been made nine months previous and that a snake oil salesman was now in charge of the offense. So bad was the team, and so desperate was Hoke to explain away his ill prepared team, I then knew only a new coaching regime could right the ship.

Joined: 12/02/2013

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ST3

November 18th, 2014 at 7:05 PM ^

It's complicated. I posted this in another thread that got caved a minute after I posted:

What's been really strange about my love/hate relationship with Brady Hoke is how I'm ready to fire him as the team struggles on Saturday. On Sunday, I look at the boxscore, see some progress from the o-line, the numbers are somewhat reasonable (we outgained ND and Utah), but I still want him gone. On Monday, the press conferences are held and I'm infuriated by his non-sensical answers. On Tuesday, I'm reminded that Brandon was a big part of the problem. On Wednesday, Hoke's going on and on about graduating 69 of 69 seniors and those things matter, and he's sort of a big ol' lug, but he's our big ol' lug. On Thursday, I remind myself how young the team is (only three 5th year senior contributors.) On Friday, I read the game preview and see how bad the opposition is, and if we can only improve a little in the passing game... and I'm ready to grudgingly give him a 5th year.

And then Saturday comes, we play like crap and I'm ready to fire him all over again.

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atom evolootion

November 18th, 2014 at 9:11 PM ^

That's quite a reasonable answer, sir. After you had your first drink, did you not ask for another stronger one? Seriously, I'm with you, for the most part. Keeping him in the same capacity never crosses my mind, but in a positional coaching capacity, hold him there. That's where I'm at with it. The team has improved in certain areas, so something is working, though it doesn't show as blatantly as we'd like. They've only lost to one bad team, granted they shouldn't have lost to any team the way they lost in the four games that turn our intestines (ND, UT, MN, State). They're getting better. And then I see the way Hoke reacts when they win--like he's having a Hulk foot taken off his back--and I feel a bit for the guy, just enough to say, "Leave him alone! He doesn't know anything!" If he wants to stay, cut his pay and put him in the areas he knows: defensive line and recruiting.

Joined: 11/03/2013

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blueinbelfast

November 18th, 2014 at 7:05 PM ^

Unrealistic though it may have been, I held on to the slim possibility that 'The Big Ten title is still out there as a goal'.  That was the only thing that could have saved him in my eyes.  After Minnesota it was clear that wasn't happening either and that we would be lucky to even go .500.

Utah made it tough to imagine keeping him, but Minnesota was the death knell.

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blueinbelfast

November 18th, 2014 at 7:05 PM ^

Unrealistic though it may have been, I held on to the slim possibility that 'The Big Ten title is still out there as a goal'.  That was the only thing that could have saved him in my eyes.  After Minnesota it was clear that wasn't happening either and that we would be lucky to even go .500.

Utah made it tough to imagine keeping him, but Minnesota was the death knell.

Joined: 11/28/2012

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blueinbelfast

November 18th, 2014 at 7:05 PM ^

Unrealistic though it may have been, I held on to the slim possibility that 'The Big Ten title is still out there as a goal'.  That was the only thing that could have saved him in my eyes.  After Minnesota it was clear that wasn't happening either and that we would be lucky to even go .500.

Utah made it tough to imagine keeping him, but Minnesota was the death knell.

Joined: 11/28/2012

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blueinbelfast

November 18th, 2014 at 7:06 PM ^

Unrealistic though it may have been, I held on to the slim possibility that 'The Big Ten title is still out there as a goal'.  That was the only thing that could have saved him in my eyes.  After Minnesota it was clear that wasn't happening either and that we would be lucky to even go .500.

Utah made it tough to imagine keeping him, but Minnesota was the death knell.

Joined: 11/28/2012

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SFBlue

November 18th, 2014 at 7:06 PM ^

Became clear to me there were major issues when Denard went down in the Nebraska game and there was no backup. With the benefit of hindsight, that was the beginning of the end.

The stretch of last year starting Akron through Iowa confirmed the doubts I had. I entered this year thinking it would take 9 wins to save his job. I knew after the Utah game that would not happen.

In short, it happened gradually in stages.

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ericcarbs

November 18th, 2014 at 7:10 PM ^

I agree with the majority. It was Minnesota for me too. He refused to put Gardner in at half (we could have at least a chance) and the game was just lackluster

Joined: 08/20/2013

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Walter Sobchak

November 18th, 2014 at 7:18 PM ^

Second half Minnesota. Watching Morris limp out to the huddle, refusing to put Gardner in. I thought, he doesn't even care if we win.

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Walter Sobchak

November 18th, 2014 at 7:18 PM ^

Second half Minnesota. Watching Morris limp out to the huddle, refusing to put Gardner in. I thought, he doesn't even care if we win.

Joined: 03/12/2010

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Trump

November 18th, 2014 at 7:18 PM ^

Looking like Ohio will make the playoff with Michigan and Indiana left. All comes down to their B1G championship game. Sigh.

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AlwaysBlue

November 18th, 2014 at 7:26 PM ^

see that this could be the end. The ND game made me question Mattison. Hoke has never lost me though. He's like a brother and you don't turn your back on your brother. In fact, you pretty much begin to hate all of the cheap shots, ridicule and judgements from people with no resume to make them.

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Rodriguesqe

November 18th, 2014 at 7:51 PM ^

when I started this thread, I wondered if:

a) anyone would claim they're still with Hoke. Took 62 posts.

b)anyone would point out that we technically have 2 chances to salvage a bowl.

I don't see how you can still be with Hoke. If you survived all of 2013, if you survived the ND-Utah-Minnesota trifecta, if you survived getting humiliated by Sparty, I still don't know how you survived the written appology to Sparty. There are atleast a half dozen times when you could have had enough of Hoke, but the appology was beyond awful. Just about as bad as claiming it was Morris' responsibility to take himself out of the game if injured.

You being honest? 

And 85 posts in, no one has pointed out we could technically win at tOSU.

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Jon06

November 18th, 2014 at 11:21 PM ^

I was kind of willing to blame the Morris reinsertion on the doctors, and I was happy to blame the Morris press conference shenanigans on Brandon given that it really looked like Hoke got hung out to dry, but the apology to Dantonio throwing Joe Bolden under the bus was totally beyond the pale. Dantonio has repeatedly let his players try to injure/maim/kill Michigan players on the field without a peep from either side. He runs a dangerous program that our players shouldn't have to deal with. So apologizing to him was not just preposterous, but totally inconsistent with leading Michigan's football program. Even if that was Brandon controlling Hoke, at some point you've got to have a backbone if you want to be a leader, and issuing that apology was just absolutely inexcusable. He lost me for real in that moment.

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evenyoubrutus

November 18th, 2014 at 7:27 PM ^

The PSU game in 2013 was when I started to have serious doubts, and the Nebraska game drove home that the coaching was flat out bad.  But the moment I knew he was done was the Utah game.

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umchicago

November 18th, 2014 at 7:27 PM ^

it's been like a game of jenga.  several pulled pieces added to the collapse:

1. misuse of denard, resulting in the losses even in 2011.

2. akron, uconn, psu in 2013.

3. being dominated by nd, utah 

4. minny was the piece that sent the jenga game crashing down.

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