What's it take to get fired at MSU?

Submitted by throckman on

Editorial on the front page of the Detroit News website: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/editorials/2018/04/03/editori…

"The excerpts from Dr. William Strampel’s performance review raise a critical question: What’s it take to get fired from Michigan State University?"

...considering that two of the three Nassar colleagues interviewed in the 2014 Title IX investigation that cleared him are still faculty at the College of Osteopathic Medicine, I think that's a poignant question.  There is -zero- peer-reviewed, scientific literature supporting what Nassar did was legitimate medical treatment.

mGrowOld

April 4th, 2018 at 12:42 PM ^

When that happens people lose their jobs (eventually).  But because Dantonio doesn't lose to us very often and Izzo is still riding his own coattails of early success against us neither of those guys is going anywhere.

American Hotel

April 4th, 2018 at 12:53 PM ^

I know I shouldn't be, but I'm continually amazed that people engage in this type of behavior and still manage to maintain their jobs and social standing for such a long time.

NittanyFan

April 4th, 2018 at 1:55 PM ^

I've personally seen it at previous jobs.  Literally put your hands on a co-worker and start to strangle him?  Eh, that was a "one-off." (that was the "explanation" of the decision makers in terms of not taking action).  That guy's still there.

It's definitely unfortunate.  You need personal at every level of the organization who are committed to always doing the "right thing" in every situation.  Those set-ups certainly aren't universal.

ikestoys

April 4th, 2018 at 2:02 PM ^

There’s zero peer reviewed scientific data for a lot of treatment. There’s even significant evidence a lot of treatments cause harm. The question is if those treatments are part of some scope of practice, and I believe that they are because DOs are weird.

-actual doctor

throckman

April 4th, 2018 at 3:17 PM ^

The issue isn't that much of modern medicine isn't actually evidence-based.  It's that faculty at a medical school can't tell the difference between sexual assault and legitimate medical treatment and can't be bothered to investigate.  Independent, verifable, third-party peer-reviewed literature can potentially provide an immediate answer to such questions.  If that literature does not exist, then you're left consulting experts, and that's precisely why Nassar wasn't caught sooner.

- actual scientist

ikestoys

April 4th, 2018 at 3:33 PM ^

My understanding is that there actually is a technique that DOs consider "legitimate medical treatment" called coccyx manipulation that Nassar claimed he was doing. MSU's error wasn't in understanding if this treatment was proper treatment or not, it was basically everything else involved in the case. If the doctors were asked if coccyx manipulation is a real treatment, and they said yes, they are on fairly solid ground. If they were asked about everything else, notsomuch.

JFW

April 4th, 2018 at 4:13 PM ^

If this was a real medical treatment, then everything else isn't an issue. 

But I thought other doctors, other DO's even, said that he wasn't doing a legitimate procedure, hence the conviction. 

Is that true? What was the 'Every thing else not so much' that you are saying they didn't do due dilligence on?

I have a hard time giving MSU any ground on this. Any at all. Doctors are like any other profession in the sense that you will have some shitbags in there populace. When enough girls started saying Nassar was a shitbag, they should have done a hell of alot more than they did to find out. Full disclosure: I am not unbiased, I have two cousins who were 'treated' by him. 

throckman

April 4th, 2018 at 4:25 PM ^

I teach anatomy at a DO school (not MSU-COM).

There is zero DO/OMM literature supporting intravaginal manipulation of the coccyx/coccygeal muscles. Not one of the DO OMM professors I've spoken with teaches this as legitimate medical treatment.  At MSU, there were only Nassar's MSU-COM colleagues providing their expert opinions.  They were either not in full possession of the facts, or grossly incompetent in their responsibilities as scholars and physicians. If they had looked for a scientific medical basis for what he was doing they would have found nothing, and that's when they should have started asking questions. 'Larry says it's legitimate' is woefully inadequate when Larry is being investigated...

Occam's Razor

April 4th, 2018 at 7:03 PM ^

Intra-vaginal OMM is a legitimate treatment for a very small population aka pregnant women. That's how someone explained it to me. 

Very few DOs are actually even certified in teaching it. 

Nassar just used it as a way to rape girls that didn't know the technique wasn't being used what it was intended for. 

 

You Only Live Twice

April 4th, 2018 at 11:50 PM ^

to try and legitimize what Nassar did. Aly Raisman cuts through such garbage by pointing out that Nassar wanted to treat her twisted ankle through her vagina.  Nassar was a serial rapist sicko who was enabled by sicko pig Strempler or whatever his name was may they both rot.

Let's not, anyone, over think or intellectualize what was done.  It was assault, it was abuse, and it happened under the guise of medical treatment in a completely consequence free environment.  MSU will not outlive this in a hundred years, forget about the daily news cycle too because that varies and is not reflective of the lasting legacy. Internet comments now common that MSU is the school that covered for Nassar.  I don't even care what happens to their beloved coaches, they too will now have to operate under far more scrutiny.  I do care that MSU fixes their cultural and institutional issues, which will be a complicated process.  No more justifying any human atrocity if they can just beat Michigan in a sporting event... no more coverup/denial BS.  Treat every athlete at MSU the way Grant Perry was treated by local law enforcement.  Absolutely revoke tenure and prosecute anyone who aided or participated in covering up crime (looking at you Klages)

JFW

April 6th, 2018 at 12:12 PM ^

" I don't even care what happens to their beloved coaches, they too will now have to operate under far more scrutiny.  I do care that MSU fixes their cultural and institutional issues, which will be a complicated process."

And, I want the same type of scrutiny at all major universities/hospitals. No more cults of personality. 

M go Bru

April 4th, 2018 at 5:14 PM ^

According to the article this is a legitimate treatment for gymnasts with lower back and hip pain only as a last resort where all other therapies have been unsuccessful.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/well/live/pelvic-massage-can-be-legi…

The fact that Nassar performed this performed this procedure without using gloves is a huge red flag that everyone should recognize! Since the aids epidemic in the early 80's all contact with patient fluids must be performed wearing medical gloves.

Klages, the gymnastics coach, should have recognized this when reported to her by her gymnasts in the late 1990s and should have addressed it immediately.

The vast majority of these assaults should have been prevented.

 

Occam's Razor

April 4th, 2018 at 7:06 PM ^

"DOs are weird" 

You realize you're calling almost 1/4 of practicing physicians in the US weird based off a degree that literally is the same as an MD right? 

95% of DOs don't give a shit about OMT and think the old guard that practice it are just stubborn geezers that won't let go of the past. 

 

90% of OMM is physical therapy. The 10% aka Craniosacral, intravaginal/oral etc OMM is way out there even in most academic DO circles. 

 

ST3

April 4th, 2018 at 9:22 PM ^

My quick google search showed 50K DOs and 750K MDs in the US. That's about 6%, not 1/4. Additionally, MDs score about 5 points higher on the MCAT than do DOs (31 vs 26). I don't have a dog in this fight, but my sister got her MD from UofM. I pity the fool who tells her that her degree is literally the same as a DO degree.

Adductor Magnus

April 5th, 2018 at 12:59 AM ^

Except...her degree is the same in all but two letters. Most patients don't know nor care about the letters behind the doc's name. There are DOs and MDs working side by side at UM Hospital with equal practice rights.

Occam's Razor

April 5th, 2018 at 2:12 AM ^

What does MCAT score have to do with anything? What you should care about are board scores. 

All MCAT scores say that DO schools are either backups or have lower admissions requirements like every other mid to low level MD school not in the top 30. The top DO schools are just as competitive as most of your MD schools these days outside of major research hubs. 

DOs and MDs are certified and recognized as equal in the US and most of the medical regulatory bodies around the globe. 

DOs who want to do anything remotely competitive also take the same board exams as MDs and will have to regardless by 2020. 

1/4 of graduating medical students in this country are now DOs. So yes, soon enough 1/4 of the practicing physicians in this country will be DOs once the baby boomers and Gen Xers retire. 

I know plenty of DO neurosurgeons, dermatologists, radiologists etc. that never use OMM in their life and their patients don't give 2 shits about the initials that come after their names. 

If you ask me OMM should be removed entirely or be made into an elective class only b/c 90% of it is a complete waste of time. 

 

Adductor Magnus

April 5th, 2018 at 1:10 AM ^

You nailed it. What Nassar was doing is certainly not something that's taught currently and regardless, even if he wasn't a DO and/or knew OMM, that POS would have found some medical "technique" to one way or another justify what he was doing.

And yeah, vast majority of my generation of future DOs probably won't practice OMM, or at most only keep it to the MSK stuff (where it's actually quite useful and works wonder (especially when you're studying all the time)).

Arb lover

April 4th, 2018 at 3:20 PM ^

They did fire for "cause" the nurse-whistle blower that first informed police that Nassar was asking nurses to leave the room while he saw patients, after receiving the directive to not see them alone.

SteamboatWolverine

April 4th, 2018 at 4:47 PM ^

The Provost states they wouldn’t fire him because he is “advancing the goals of the College within the broad mission of Michigan State University”.

MSU’s espoused values are meaningless when the value enacted by leadership is to maximize benefit to the university, at all cost. The culture is amoral.

SF Wolverine

April 4th, 2018 at 5:15 PM ^

Beyond belief.  Who looks the other way on something like this, and doubles down by offering public prasie of this scumbag.  They are in real need of a deep, thorough housecleaning, but I am not optimistic that is going to happen.  

MaladjustedStrong

April 4th, 2018 at 11:05 PM ^

But, I think they call it "tenure" for a reason--like it or not

AND if you have to wonder what it takes to get fired at MSU--

see: The current president of the United States of America...