We are young on defense..but can we be good?

Submitted by cypress on

Sometimes I find myself thinking that when all these freshmen we are playing become upperclassmen, we have a shot at having a very good defense. Maybe this will be true, but am I making too big of an assumption? This will only be true if these freshmen keep developing, and more importantly if they have the skills needed to become legit starters on an above average Big 10 defense. Vinopal-is he really a 4 year starter or someone who is just holding the spot down because we have no one else? Similar questions can be asked of guys like Cam, T Gordon, Avery, Carvin and a few other young guys. Obviously no one knows the answer for sure, but I'd like to hear opinions on who you think has a bright future.

Also, I know that RR wants to get to the point where we are red-shirting most incoming freshmen but we haven't had the luxury of doing it. Are we getting to that point next year? With guys coming off redshirts and losing very few seniors, we should have decent depth next year. I could make a 2-deep depth chart (but I won't so don't worry) where we look to be ok provided we stay reasonably healthy. So I wonder if we are going to really need true freshmen to come in and make significant impacts. Our D will improve tremendously when we have the luxury of having kids develop and learn before being forced onto the field.

BigBlue02

November 16th, 2010 at 10:48 AM ^

The entire defense minus mouton Martin, and van Bergen are very, very young and some have been playing college football for around 4 months total. I don't know how on earth u can say who will be a star. Literally, every person u mentioned is either a true freshman or redshirt freshman. They will all get better simply because they will get older. So in short, I see improvement out of everyone who isn't graduating

Ziff72

November 16th, 2010 at 10:49 AM ^

RR's program is based on competition.  We finally have depth everywhere.   We will be much better.  I don't think we have the material right now to be one of the best defenses in the country, but as we improve we will get there.  

I'll keep posting until we're Big Ten champs next year,  the same thing.  This defense will be much improved.  The Dline will be the Big Ten's best or dam close.  The back 7 will have athleticism, competition and experience next year.  That will be good enough to be an average to hopefully better than average defense next year.  

Better than average defense next year = Big Ten and possible NC

starrmander

November 16th, 2010 at 12:10 PM ^

Competition is huge, once these guys have some younger guys pushing them, they will just keep getting better and better.  One thing that the young guys are really missing right now though is some seniors to teach them the ropes of how to play football at the college level.   Senior leaders could have taught them the details of playing the position and given them an example of how to play.  Right now these young guys are figuring this all out for themselves and hopefully they will be around for a long time to teach the guys coming in behind them.

BlueBarron

November 16th, 2010 at 10:50 AM ^

Good? Possibly. Average, most definitely. There's a reason coaches tend to play upperclassmen as starters than underclassmen. Jr's and Sr's are more experienced and they've had the extra workouts to be more athletic. And since they're more experienced, they don't have to think as much on the field (we know what happens to our defense when they have to think).

As early as next year we might be average (in my opinion). I think we'll only get better and better.

Beavis

November 16th, 2010 at 11:04 AM ^

I remember when I was a true freshman in college.

If I had 4-5 years of Barwis training?  You could actually lose football skills and still improve as a player.  These kids are raw, yo.

Tater

November 16th, 2010 at 11:10 AM ^

When recruiting players, I think it's safe to say that RR and his staff don't say, "let's recruit guys who will peak as freshmen and sophomores and never improve after that."  I also think it's safe to say that Barwis and Biology will help most of these kids get bigger, faster, and stronger by the time they are upperclassmen.  Also, as they gain experience, they will spend less time thinking and will be able to react quicker.   

I think there are enough players on both sides of the ball to do the Maize and Blue proud.  We may struggle through watching one more mediocre year on defense, but I'm not so sure this defense won't be at least average next year.  If the offense approaches the execution that Oregon presently employs, Michigan could be a very scary team next year. 

And this time, it is the opponents who will be scared.

YakAttack

November 16th, 2010 at 11:21 AM ^

heartache to heartache we stand

No promises no demands

Love is a battlefield. 





We are strong

no-one can tell us we're wrong

Searching our hearts for so long

Both of us knowing

Love is a battlefield.





You're begging me to go

then making me stay -

Why do you hurt me so bad?

It would help me to know

do I stand in your way

Or am I the best thing you've had?

Believe me

believe me

I can't tell you why





But I'm trapped by your love

and I'm chained to your side.

We are young

heartache to heartache we stand

no promises, no demads

love is a battlefeild



When I'm losing control

will you turn me away or touch me deep inside'

And when all this gets old

will it still feel the same?

There's no way this will die



But if we get much closer

I could lose control



And if your heart surrenders you'll need me to hold.

We are young

heartache to heartache we stand

...

bronxblue

November 16th, 2010 at 11:29 AM ^

If you look across the B10, you see programs like Wiscy and Iowa sporting really good defenses with mediocre "talent" because the guys they have playing are upperclassmen and have been in the program for years.  So while guys like Vinopal, the Gordons, Avery, etc. might not be guru-approved top guys, they will still be competent performers as they gain more and more experience, and those "glue" guys are what turn a good defense into a very good or elite defense.  Look no further than Kovacs - here is a guy who has been around the program for a couple of years (yeah he was injured for one, but still), and with experience is one of the better defenders on the team and could very well finish as an honorable mention All B10 by his senior year.  So while I think the talent level on defense definitely needs to increase for the defense to return to some of those under Carr, natural growth, familiarity, and less Angry _ Hating God will help this team to improve next year.

funkywolve

November 16th, 2010 at 1:18 PM ^

A lot of people use the Iowa/Wisky reference for good defenses that are generally stocked with upperclassmen.  They are good examples, but I think a lot of the credit has to go to the coaches who make sure the players understand what their responsibilities are.  At the same time, you've got to have players are able to understand and execute their responsibilities.  I'm sure Obi and Mouton could tell you what their responsibilities are on a given play, but it's a coin flip as to whether they actually execute those responsibilities properly.

To me, a good example is the safety play at UM.  Imo, it's been substandard for years - well before RR arrived.  UM kept putting upperclassmen on the field but yet the safety play always seemed to range from below average to average.

MGolem

November 16th, 2010 at 1:57 PM ^

For so many years we had veterans at the safety positions and they always seem to fall short of expectations...today is a new day and from this point forth we will not have that problem anymore (please!)

MightAndMainWeCheer

November 16th, 2010 at 1:34 PM ^

His story is inspiring, and he is a smart football player; he's a true Michigan man.  I will never look back on his contributions with anything less than genuine appreciation.

With that said, he will not be an honorable mention selection as a senior.  RR said that the problem with our defense isn't just a lack of size but actually to a greater extent a lack of speed.  Is it surprising that Cam Gordon was moved to the box safety/OLB position and Marvin Robinson was tried out at LB at around the same time?  Cam Gordon went from being a slow free safety to an undersized, but fast, LB.

Obviously the defensive staff sees the same issues with Kovacs but there is no suitable replacement for the time being.  He may be one of our smarter defensive players but his physical limitations are holding back the defense to an extent (he's not fast enough to cover receivers, not big enough to take on blockers).  I would hope that at least one of Marvin Robinson/Josh Furman/etc. is able to learn the game and surpass Kovacs by his senior year. 

It would be awesome though if Kovacs is voted a permanent captain and fulfills the same role that Moundros does this year.

mgoblue720

November 16th, 2010 at 11:41 AM ^

the average athletes coming into Michigan can become very good upperclassmen starters because they know where they are supposed to be and have added the qeight necessary to compete.

MattisonMan

November 16th, 2010 at 12:46 PM ^

Courtney Avery will be a solid corner.  If he continues at this pace he could be pushing for all big-10 by his senior year.  I also think Cam Gordon will be a great WLB.  As for the rest, I think they'll be better given their premature starting experience.  I agree that if they're mediocre we'll be set if the offense stays at this level. 

 

Bonus: Roh's eyebrows alone will be all-american and will be taken in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the NFL draft, respectively. 

mgoSk

November 16th, 2010 at 1:01 PM ^

I remember reading that WVU interview with a former player a few weeks back. There the player said RR told him he played well, but was given his spot, etc. I think this is sort of the case here. Some guys on the defense are playing or even starting because of the lack of depth. Think if we had solid starters everywhere (like in 2 years) and guys like Avery, Vinopal come in on special teams or nickel packages and make the plays they're making now. That's the role these freshman and RS freshman should be in.

I think it's hard to judge these guys when they still have to be overthinking their play a lot of the time (guessing, don't know from experience). When there's depth and you've earned your spot, that's just more confidence built in right there.

WolvinLA2

November 16th, 2010 at 1:02 PM ^

I think our defense will be, at minimum, "good" in 2012.  These guys:

Jibreel, Roh, QWash, Mike Jones, MRob, both Gordons, Kovacs, Carvin, Vinopal, Avery, Talbott, Cullen

...have all seen playing time this fall, most of them significant and/or starting.  The oldest of that group is a true soph, meaning, at most, they've had one off-season as a Michigan football player, most of them none.  Demens and Floyd, both starters at one point, are only RS sophomores. 

In 2012, all of the guys I've named will still be here, and they will be upperclassmen.  Add in the promising guys redshirting like Furman, Wilkins, Talbott, Ash, Jake Ryan and any big time recruits we bring in between now and then, and I think we're looking at a good to very good defense. 

dahblue

November 16th, 2010 at 2:34 PM ^

The assumptions about our depth on D may be misplaced. RR has lost roughly 25% of his defensive recruits. That's a very tough number to deal with when trying to build depth. It could take a few more years to field a 'decent' defense. Experience on it's own doesn't build studs.