Traylor, Taylor, and Bullock

Submitted by Skiptoomylou22 on March 14th, 2011 at 7:25 PM

    The Fab 5 documentary is stuck fresh in my mind as im sure it is with everybody else as well. I was born in december of their freshman year so I hadn't really had an idea of what the basketball team was all about until probably Amakers first year. They briefly stated that Webber along with Tractor, Maurice Taylor, and Louis Bullock all got in trouble for the scandal. My questions are

  1. Were they all involved with Ed Martin?
  2. Was Webber the only one that lied to a grand jury?
  3. Is the Michigan ban (that expires in 2013) on those individuals as well?
  4. Why hadn't Jalen Rose gotten in trouble for it?

Appreciate any help. The show made me very curious and you guys might know a better deal about it than I.

Comments

jmblue

March 14th, 2011 at 7:36 PM ^

That's why Rose didn't get in legal trouble, but doesn't explain the NCAA thing.  Either the NCAA decided that Martin qualified as a "family friend" because of his association with Southwestern HS, or they decided that he didn't take enough money to be worth their while.  

BiSB

March 14th, 2011 at 7:50 PM ^

Ed Martin gave smaller sums of money to a lot of players in Detroit, so to go after Jalen they would possibly have to look at a lot of other kids.  The NCAA had plenty of evidence on the other four (who took the vast majority of the money involved), so they may have simply decided not to kick over that particular rock.

PurpleStuff

March 14th, 2011 at 7:58 PM ^

The NCAA doesn't really "investigate" anything.  They deal with information that falls into their lap (the stuff that came out of the Ed Martin trial), stuff the schools themselves turn over (UM stretching bullshit), or info provided by a third party with an axe to grind (SEC folks who ratted out Alabama over the Means case, wannabe agents who Reggie Bush ripped off, Miss. St. folks pissed Cam Newton went to Auburn, etc.).

 

Andy

March 15th, 2011 at 12:54 AM ^

This is my biggest problem with the way U of M handled the Ed Martin thing.  When they got the Feds to ask about money he gave to Michigan basketball players they should have told the Feds to ask about money he gave to ALL college players.  The documentary didn't touch on this other than Jalen's comments about Martin helping out lots of kids.  Combine this with the numbers of players from Southwestern and other Detroit schools playing D1 ball at the time and the NCAA would have been put in an interesting position of going after a ton of schools or just letting Michigan off easily.

Musket Rebellion

March 14th, 2011 at 8:07 PM ^

Jalen didn't get in trouble because he A. Didn't lie about his connection to Ed Martin and B. His connection was deemed a family friend since he had been in contact with Jalen since he was 12. Webber got in trouble because he lied to a grand jury and he took an exorbitant amount of money. 

WolverineHistorian

March 14th, 2011 at 8:10 PM ^

I was kind of hoping that the documentary would give a little more info about Taylor, Bullock and Tractor Traylor because from what I remember reading back in the day, those were the guys who were living like millionaires on campus, moreso than the Fab Five.  Of course, I don't know how accurate that was. 

Traylor and Bullock gave me one of my favorite all time Michigan basketball wins from my teenage years; a 112-64 beating of Indiana coached by that jackass, Bob Knight. 

From 1998:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3VayQJDtdw

profitgoblue

March 14th, 2011 at 8:27 PM ^

He hates the Fab Five because their brand of basketball and existence is everything he is not.  They played with focus on their individual talent in a type of "street ball" that Knight despised.  And they came onto the scene and changed college basketball forever.  Knight, being the ultimate egocentric piece of sh-t that he is, could never appreciate their revolution.  All he likely saw is that his existence will never be the same and he probably hated the Fab Five for affecting his life on numerous levels.

profitgoblue

March 14th, 2011 at 9:45 PM ^

Maybe it was an unwise choice of words by me, but I did not mean that they played selfishly when I said they played "streetball."  What I meant is they clearly played their game and Steve Fisher was more of a "let them play" kind of coach than a Bobby Knight.  I think that much is true.  If I implied that they did not pass or played poor defense then I choose the improper descriptive term.

Section 1

March 15th, 2011 at 1:13 AM ^

Knight always hated Frieder.  He always thought Frieder was dirty.  He told his good friend, Bo Schembechler (they really were good friends, going back to OSU connections) that he thought Freider was dirty.

As he was about most things, Knight was mostly but not perfectly correct.

Bo, as AD, had a notion that he might bring Knight to Ann Arbor.

Magnus

March 14th, 2011 at 10:52 PM ^

I mean, they're about as much of a disgrace to college basketball as Reggie Bush was to college football.  All the good stuff they did was completely overshadowed by the fact that they took money for it and everything got wiped off the records.

I know we love them as Michigan fans...

...but if you can't understand that they were a disgrace in some ways, then I think you're being a bit of a homer.

Tater

March 14th, 2011 at 11:36 PM ^

...just Webber.  The rest were clean, or at least somewhere on the Bell Curve.  But I agree wholehearedly that Webber was a disgrace.

As for the post-Webber cheaters, they were also a disgrace.  They had their chance and blew it.  Because of them, every POS on RCMB still says "dirty program" and "cheaters" in referernce to Michigan, and some people still believe them. 

As a Michigan fan, I feel we can't have it both ways.  We can't say "we do things right at the University of Michigan" out of one side of the mouth and pleasure CWebb with the other side.  It doesn't work that way.   

Magnus

March 14th, 2011 at 11:46 PM ^

True...I guess I should have made the distinction between Webber and the Fab Five.  Although without Webber, I'm not sure there is a Fab Five.  He was the best of the bunch.  I mean, we all refer to USC as being dirty, but the only one with serious dirt on him is Bush...and he's one player out of over a hundred on a team.  Webber was a much larger part of those Michigan teams.  As Jalen (I think it was him) said in the documentary, it's hard for those guys to be mad at him for calling that timeout because he was the one who got them to the national championship game.

Shondon

March 15th, 2011 at 10:06 AM ^

Come on disgrace for being kids i blame the school, ncaa, nike and the media they were totally exploited they had no one but each other and they had to grow up real fast, 4 of the 5 came from not to well to do families and if you ever played sports you know there's a million ppl trying to sway you in a million directions they don't deserve any of the critisism they got!! Frieder was the start of this he's the architect that buried the skeletons that crubled UofM  not the fab five i'm sure Frieder knew Big Money Ed too

Magnus

March 15th, 2011 at 10:35 AM ^

They don't deserve ANY criticism?  Not for cussing out the media?  Not for taking money that got all kinds of victories and banners removed?  Not for lying about it?

Come on.  Be realistic.  Saying they don't deserve ANY criticism is homerism at its worst.

Shondon

March 15th, 2011 at 12:47 PM ^

Honestly I too would've cussed out the media in the moment he apologized later but there was a lot and i mean a lot of pent up feelings so outbursts happen they're human and if were critisizing them for being human then are we human to be human is to err once again no one and i do mean no one not Jalen, not Jimmy not Juwan or Ray knows what C did we can't talk judge or critisize them.... Fab five nikes come on them kids got a taste after their freshman year as to what it would be like to be totally exploited by a lot of ppl and the media we as fans alum turned our backs on the team looking back at that team i can name at least three other players that deserved way more critisism than C ever did Jobair, Tarpley, Robinson to name a few before them and oh we know about the others after UofM hoops has never been viewed as Duke lite..... We will never know what happened when they were there, but me being a black man and having to endure what they did just put more weight on those kids were talking about kids here kids very influentual kids and we blame them for doing what kids do make bad decisions. Now on to the other schools tOSU should get the death penalty USC deserves what they got and hopefully they get more bringing a known shady coach and one leaving come on then we have Auburn really all these schools are dirty and we know all programs pay kids in some fashion this we know.... Not saying two wrongs make a right but don't blame or critisize for being kids and human. 

Sad but true only color i love is Blue

Section 1

March 15th, 2011 at 1:18 PM ^

Ridiculous.  There are basketball fans.  They pay money to go to games, they watch games on tv that produce big ratings.  They buy basketball apparel and memorabilia.

The fact that there are "basketball fans" meant that Chris Webber could leave the univeristy that had given him a scholarship, and make millions off of his extraordinary talents in the NBA.

Maybe the problem is that universities ought never to get involved with people like Chris Webber in the first place.  Maybe Chris Webber should have graduated from Country Day (that too was a nice deal fro Chris) and gone on to play for a year or two in Italy, or Croatia, in a development league, and then go on to the NBA.  It wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

So please; spare me all of the proclaimed misery from Chris Webber, who's been a coddled, comforted, spoiled athlete his entire adult life.  Who retired from the league at age 35, and thereafter had the chance to be a television commentator on the sport.  Thanks in large part to his association with the University of Michigan Fab Five, which did him much good and which left the Michigan basketball program in a state of almost irreparable harm.

No one has ever played the "victim" card with less credibility than Mayce Edward Christopher Webber, III.

jmblue

March 15th, 2011 at 1:26 PM ^

I don't think it's exploitation for a university to charge spectators for admission (that's money that goes back toward the players' education, among other things) - but the relationship Nike had with the Fab Five was pretty unsavory.  They used the Fab Five as de facto endorsers of their new shoe lines (Air Hurache, Air Force Max, etc.) without needing to compensate them, as NCAA guidelines forbade it.  It was a pretty nice deal for Phil Knight.

Section 1

March 15th, 2011 at 1:46 PM ^

What was "unsavory" about compliance with the well-established NCAA rules?  If Chris Webber wanted a shoe contract, his place to get one would have been the NCAA.

Here's just a simple, basic question -- and I do not know or recall the answer -- but did Nike ever market anything using the words "Fab Five"?  I understand that they made some all-black shoes.  Michigan players wore them, and kids bought them.  That's what happens today.  Michigan players wear certain models of adidas shoes.  And kids buy them because of that.

Phil Knight paid Michigan to get his products onto the feet (and butts, and chests) of Michigan athletes.  It was a promotional deal.  And Michigan provided its student-athletes with one of the great environments of any university anywhere, to compete.  Oh, and a scholarship.

Magnus

March 15th, 2011 at 1:27 PM ^

It doesn't matter whether you or I or anyone on the street knows exactly what Chris Webber did.  The bottom line is that the NCAA and a grand jury determined that what Webber did was wrong.  They determined that he lied to the grand jury, and what he lied about was related to taking money.  So therefore a court of law determined that he took money that he should not have taken.

You can say "kids will be kids" all you want, but that doesn't mean that everything a 16- or 18- or 20-year-old "kid" does is okay.  It was wrong.  There's no if's, and's, or but's about it.  The university, the basketball team, his teammates, his family, the fans, all kinds of people were affected by his poor decisions.

Webber deserves criticism.  We all do when we do something wrong.  If you're going to give him praise for his exploits on the basketball floor, then he can shoulder some criticism for his decisions off of it.  The world is a two-way street.  He did a lot of good, and he did a lot of harm.  That doesn't mean he's a horrible person, that anyone should hate him, etc.  But it's a ridiculous notion to say that he doesn't deserve any criticism and that he was just a kid being a kid.  As a college athlete, he knew he shouldn't be getting paid.  He took the money, anyway.

And no offense, but I'm not going to argue this point any further with you because frankly, your writing is practically incomprehensible.  Learning how to use punctuation goes a long way for communicating on the internet.

Shondon

March 15th, 2011 at 1:35 PM ^

I guess you're right, but judge and judge all evenly and honestly,we are all guilty of something at some time or another some just get caught and he did. Their unity is a testament they're still bitter with the school solidarity to the best thing that ever happened to college hoops viva la fab five.

22'2's

profitgoblue

March 14th, 2011 at 8:29 PM ^

I continue to be sorry that most of you never got to be on campus during the Fab Five era.  It was an existence that will never be equalled.  You mentioned Traylor, et al. being kinds on campus but they couldn't touch the Fab Five.  I think part of what led to their downfall, even if just a little part, was the fact that they could never live up to what the Fab Five did for college basketball.

Black Kerouac

March 15th, 2011 at 2:56 AM ^

I was at Michigan '93-'99...I only ran into Traylor twice. First time was at an MLK Day rally when he pulled up right behind me in a Mercedes E-Class. Second time was when I worked at Babbage's, the video game store in Briarwood mall. He walked in, bought a huge stack of games and pulled out an immense roll of hundred dollar bills to pay for them. I'd say that's odd for a college student.

Webber's Pimp

March 14th, 2011 at 8:29 PM ^

1 yes

2 yes

3 yes

So I'll add a little more to the equation so that you get a feel for the dynamics at play here...

Part of what makes Webber such a compelling and controversial figure is that of the 5 he was expected to be the best and the brightest. He was blessed with good looks and uncanny athletic ability (he had the softest hands you'll ever see and he could leap out of the gym). He was also soft spoken (the product of an elite private school education) and came from a hard working middle class family (i.e he wasn't poor). In short he had practically every advantage one could possible have in life except for money. And even that wouldn't be a problem because he was the best basketball player in America his senior year of high school and during his 2 years of college. This last point is debateable but if you are judging on pure athletic ability he was better than anybody he ever went up against (including Laettner who many people believe is one of the greatetst college basketball player to ever suit up). So all of this begs the question...Why?

Imho, the answer to this question is not what we'd expect because it reveals an insecure young man who talked a big game but didn't believe in himself enough to make the right decision when faced with what should have been an easy choice. That said he should be embraced by his Michigan family because those of us who witnessed his two years at our University  were treated to a basketball storyline the likes of which will never be replicated. 

switch26

March 14th, 2011 at 9:18 PM ^

i agree, i remember growing up i was about 10-12 during the fab five years and i never missed a game.  It has been so long I had forgotten how much they changed the game of college basketball.

 

I don't think we will ever see a freshman class do what they did ever again.  Kentucky with Jon Wall and company would have been the closest in recent memory, but they still couldn't make it to the championship

jblaze

March 14th, 2011 at 9:15 PM ^

was dirty as hell. When I was a sophomore, he and I were in the same class, and he was sporting a $700 Versace belt (a female gymnast friend told me).

Srock

March 14th, 2011 at 9:33 PM ^

I was a freshman the same year as the Fab 5 - so yes, I am old. I actually played against Webber in High School, to say he dominated me, well, remember that clip of him dunking as a  7th grader in the documentary - he did that easily against us all the time.

Anywho... the thing I remember most about the Fab 5 was how loud Crisler was during games, and it was always sold out. The other strange thing the AD did was have a first come first serve basis for the student section. So we camped out at Crisler the night before games. Just like at Duke, but in the Midwestern winter. We'd put our tents on the exhaust vents at Crisler to stay warm. The student section went from baseline to baseline behind both benches and then had 3 or 4 sections of the yellow seats all the way to the top. It was a scene. 

I will leave with this. The night before the UM vs. UNC game in New Orleans I did have a few beers with Bobby Hurley at Pat O'Briens.  

I don't remember the racist letters, I do remember hating the Temple Coach (Chaney?) and also Huggins at Cincy.

Here's to another run in March. It's great to be Dancin'

 

Go Blue!

Shondon

March 15th, 2011 at 9:55 AM ^

Nuff said are we as MIchigan fans sooooo stupid to think that a 18-19 year old kid is smart enough to say no to a duffle bag full of money??? Ask yourself never seeing that growing up with less than others and going to college, I can speak for myself and a few other friends when i say that at that age even knowing i was going to UofM there's absolutely no way i would've turned down that money with that being said UofM Nike and others totally profited from the fab five and they got nothing i'd resent all of them as well CWebb is probably the greatest big man to ever play for Big Blue and played his heart out for Big Blue I'm totally offended by the lack of unity these kids chose Big Blue for a reason cause Fish let them be themselves! and for what they all endured I commend them there was far more negative than positive created for them not by them they did all the hard work not us we've never walked a day in their shoes so to judge is to err...... I feel like some of theese posts should be ended with Roll Tide, Go Sparty, or tOSU wouldn't do this and Notre dame is the best, all the haters must be hated.