The Time Ted Bundy Got His Ass Kicked in a U-M Bar

Submitted by BursleyHall82 on February 17th, 2019 at 7:22 PM

Just finished watching the excellent Netflix documentary series about Ted Bundy, "Conversations With a Killer." I never knew about his U-M connection before - and a new tidbit was revealed in the documentary.

Bundy escaped from jail in Colorado on December 30, 1977. It's apparently well-known (although I didn't know this) that after he took a flight from Denver to Chicago, he hopped on a train to Ann Arbor and on Jan. 2, 1978, he was in a bar in Ann Arbor to watch Washington play Michigan in the Rose Bowl. (We won't talk about that game.)

Here's the tidbit that came out in the documentary: While in that bar, he either ALMOST got his ass kicked or DID get his ass kicked by some of us. Here's the way it was described in the documentary by a journalist who got the story straight from Bundy:

“He took the bus to Denver, got a flight to Chicago. In Chicago, he got on an Amtrak train and went to Ann Arbor, and was there to watch his alma mater, the University of Washington, play the University of Michigan in the Rose Bowl. He got drunk watching it in a college bar, and almost got beat to shit by a bunch of Michigan fans.”

So, whichever Michigan fans almost beat the shit out of Ted Bundy, good on you.



February 17th, 2019 at 7:34 PM ^

I'd like to take credit for it, but I wasn't ten yet and was never into jumping individuals with my bros.  Though I could see Ted Bundy deserving it.


February 17th, 2019 at 7:51 PM ^

I forget where I read this, but I have a couple of additional details:  (1) The bar was Dooley's, which is where Scorekeeper's is now.  (2) Apparently he was asking people what it was like living in Ann Arbor, and what the typical rent was on an apartment.  I don't know what he was told, but obviously he decided not to settle down in AA, and he went to Florida (I think) next.

Broken Brilliance

February 17th, 2019 at 7:56 PM ^

I researched this on the Googles a few weeks ago. One thing I read said it might have happened at old town tavern. Scorekeepers would seem like a more fitting location in my mind's eye. Then I guess he stayed in the sanctuary at one of the churches in kerrytown


February 17th, 2019 at 8:17 PM ^

There is a bar in my home town (mt. Adams, Cincinnati) that doesn’t serve tequila anymore. 

The reason bc a young man was drinking tequila and hanging off of the balcony joking about jumping. Turns out that man was Charles Manson. 

Unrelated to OPs post but the story about  Ted being at a bar reminded me of it. 

San Diego Mick

February 17th, 2019 at 8:51 PM ^

I remember that game unfortunately, it sucked that in the early stages of the game, our LB/Punter John Anderson had to kneel to catch the ball before punting around midfield.

So instead of pinning them deep they got the ball right there and gave them early momentum that we couldn't eventually overcome in losing 27-20.

Also, fuck Ted Bundy!!!

Glen Masons Hot Wife

February 17th, 2019 at 8:56 PM ^

Except that it didn't happen.  You mean ALMOST got his ass kicked.

I was wondering which bar it was.... that's cool history if it happened at Scorekeepers (Dooley's).

Even cooler than Brian Griese throwing a chair through the window.

Perkis-Size Me

February 17th, 2019 at 9:12 PM ^

We watched it last week. Great documentary, a real glimpse into the mind of a psychotic, amoral, unsympathetic sociopath. And what made him so dangerous, among other things, is that not only how smart he was with knowing how to take advantage of the law enforcement system, but how “normal” he was. He was just like any other guy, and could alter his face to make himself look completely different. Him, Dahmer and Gary were the human manifestation of evil.

Shame he wasn’t beaten to shit and hospitalized. How many more lives would’ve been saved if he was?


February 18th, 2019 at 5:46 AM ^

there is so much there to discuss but this isn't the forum.  i will say it indirectly created one of the craziest bridge games in the history of our planet, as manson, kraft, david brown, and a few other notable murderers would gather in san quentin to play. 

as to the delays, you could start your research with former cal supreme court justice rose bird and go from there.  

rob f

February 18th, 2019 at 12:28 AM ^

Wow, XM, I just read part of and skimmed thru the rest of that rather long Wikipedia story, until I reached the section about the GR murders.  Turns out the two GR victims are distant relatives of mine on my maternal Grandfather's side of the family!

I vaguely remember hearing about their murders back in the 80's, but since I don't think I had ever met either of them and I had moved away from GR several years earlier, I never really learned of many of the details, especially that they were victims of a mass serial murderer.  

But when I just now read the last names "Alt" and "Schoenborn", I suddenly connected the dots and realized which GR murder case you were posting about, and that you probably know way more details of the two GR murders than the Wiki page gives.  

Yeah, I can see, after reading much of that, how you'd vividly remember such a gruesome case some 30+ years later.



February 18th, 2019 at 5:54 AM ^

when he was pulled over that night they eventually of course searched his car.  he had his list of victims underneath the floor mat on the driver side.  at that time it didn't mean anything but by the morning it sure did.  we had almost caught him (inadvertently) a few times where he'd dropped either still barely alive and/or newly dead bodies in places that had them quickly discovered. 

i won't go into the details of what he did to the bodies, its too disgusting.  i will only say that so many of us are parents and the thought of a loved one being subjected to that is beyond comprehension.  

i still remember being in judge mccartin's court room for that trial.  he was way crotchety, but was actually not a bad draw for that trial with all the legal land mines that had to be navigated. 

rob f

February 18th, 2019 at 8:07 PM ^

A lot of grizzly details already in that Wikipedia page you linked about  Kraft, XM, some of it nightmare-inducing type of information.  And yet, I'm sure much of what you saw was much worse.

What kind of work did Kraft do that enabled him to take so many work-related trips?  From the way that Wiki reads, he seemed to be an opportunist who always found a quick victim or two each stop along the way, but at the same time also seemed to be sloppy in covering his tracks. 

For instance, I'm reading Kraft left Schoenborn's keys behind when he left his GR hotel AND also left behind a jacket that had inside it the name of a prior west coast victim.  Was communication that lacking back in those pre-internet days that the GR/Kent County/MSP investigators looking into the GR murders didn't have any idea they were dealing with a serial killer?

I'm going to do a little bit of internet research this evening on those GR murders.  And also going to find out what I can about my family tree, too---I know I'm directly related (I'm guessing 3rd cousin to the victim) to the Alt clan in the GR area and if the two murder victims were cousins of each other, that should also mean Schoenborn is likely also a distant relative of mine.



February 18th, 2019 at 9:15 PM ^

rob, i don't know if you really want to dive in. its really gory stuff.  like, some of the worst crime scene photos i ever saw and i've seen a bunch.  candidly i hope you won't be able to access them.  

if you still want more detail, you should start with the o.c. register, the paper of record where he was prosecuted.  but don't say i didn't warn you.

IIRC kraft was some type of consultant, maybe with early computers?  yes, cross jurisdictional information exchange was difficult back then, interstate even more so.  as crazy as it may seem now, the fax was a totally new invention back then. i remember retrieving records from other jurisdictions via fax and it was an amazing thing that you could get it done in a matter of minutes or maybe an hour or two, what had formerly taken days or weeks. 

rob f

February 18th, 2019 at 9:53 PM ^

Just checking back in on the thread after looking at family tree information; I was able to confirm that one of the victims, Dennis Alt, was definitely a 3rd cousin of mine (Dennis's older brother Steve was a classmate of mine from kindergarten thru 8th grade and their family farm was roughly 3 miles from my childhood home). 

As for the other GR victim, Chris Schoenborn, I'm still researching it but I believe him to be either a 4th cousin one generation later or related thru marriage to my extended family.  But I do know of the family, as a couple of older members of the Schoenborn family attended my high school while I did.

I did also find some additional information in the GR Press online archives that differs slightly from the Wiki page info and added a lot more detail, and I'm right now reading an LA Times article about the penalty phase of the trial, when the GR Prosecutor and family members of the Michigan victims were preparing to make statements to the judge.

The LA Times, BTW, listed Kraft's occupation as computer programmer for Lear-Siegler in Anaheim CA.

Fascinating and very disturbing stuff,  I think I'll take your advice and not dig for the gory crime scene details.


February 18th, 2019 at 10:16 PM ^

the penalty phase in a death penalty case many times can be longer than the trial.  you had to find what were called 'special circumstances', meaning things that made a first degree murder into something even worse.  i was part of the death panel and we would go over cases in great detail.  it would take some extreme cruelty, torture, multiple victims, sometimes also a bad prior record, and not just proof beyond a reasonable doubt like a normal criminal case, but what we would all feel was proof beyond all doubt that we had the right person.  

as an aside, i can't believe i remembered his occupation from 3 decades away.  i tried hundreds of cases and i bet i couldn't do that for maybe any of my cases, maybe a handful, but that case was different.  i still remember the defense attorney's opening words of his opening argument, 'there is no direct evidence that randy kraft ever killed anyone'....and away we went.  like i mentioned earlier, pure evil.  he deserved/deserves death. i am sorry for your family's loss, distant from you as it might be.  evil exists in the world and will until He comes. 


February 17th, 2019 at 9:31 PM ^

The documentary was the first time I've heard of this account. Dooley's sounds like the bar he visited, it was known to be a meat market back in the day and only a 15 minute walk from the Amtrak Station.  It was 1/2/1978, I was a Junior and home on Christmas Break as well as probably most of the town, so hopefully the desolate and cold atmosphere sent him packing.

I would speculate that he was thinking on taking up in Ann Arbor, since the Amtrak Route from Chicago is not the most common route to take to get across the country.  They say he stole a car and drove to Atlanta, then took a bus to Florida State in Tallahassee, where on 1/15/1978, he murdered 2 women and injured two other women at the Chi Omega Sorority House. Scary to think that he could have easily continued his killings in Ann Arbor.

Kick Out The Jams

February 17th, 2019 at 9:34 PM ^

Ann Arbor area harbored a precursor to Bundy in the late sixties: John Norman Collins.  First time I realized that not only were there "bad guys" in the world, but pure evil.  Just typing his name still freaks me out a bit to this day.