Time to Recognize MSU is Legit

Submitted by dieseljr32 on October 17th, 2011 at 2:51 PM

I know that every Michigan fan considers OSU to be the biggest rival but I think it's time for MSU to be held in the same regard. They are a bunch of thugs that are coached to do anything possible to gain an advantage over Michigan.

Say what you want about morals, but sometimes you do have to play down to your enemies level. I do not condone William Gholston-esque style of football.  Michigan State was a zillion times more aggressive in this game because they absolutely hate Michigan.  I don't feel like the hate is reciprocal.  Obviously Brady Hoke and Company want to beat MSU but until the aggressive nature of this game is met by the Wolverines in a professional manner, the Spartans will keep having their way in this rivalry.




October 17th, 2011 at 2:52 PM ^

They beat the worst 4 teams of the past 30 years.  Who cares.  Let them beat Hoke and Co in 2014, and then I'll say that their worth of respect as a rival.


October 17th, 2011 at 8:25 PM ^

..they are legit. Here's what has happened the past four years, we were dominating State and we beat them six years straight, and Hart called them little brother.

Then Rich Rod came in, and made pro-style players run a speed spread, and instant loss. Then he started recrutiing smaller (faster) players at every position and ignored instate recruiting, but his speed spread just didn't work. So a lot of quality players who would have gone to michigan went to MSU. They are in a sense, Lloyd Carr's teams, just at MSU. These 4 losses in the MSU - UofM rivalry has accidently answered the debate of whether or not we should of kept Lloyd Carr or at the least a pro offense.

Now Brady is here and he is going to start stealing all those players who would of gone to state in the future, plus some national grabs as we have seen, but currently we still have all of Rich Rod's players. I am not giving you the same bare roster bull we have said in the past. But you are only as good as the players you recruit in college football. Rich Rod, ignored the trenches positions and all of defense, and it shows.

So I want the spartans to enjoy this run. Little brother is still little brother, they have just been stealing Michigan's plan to success and Brady Hoke, Greg Mattison and Al Borges are here to take it back.

We don't have to go undefeated this year, it'd be nice...but lets just make a bowl and enjoy the thrills of the season. We have the top OL and LB class coming in, one of the top classes overall and probably a top 2 defense class coming in. Oh yea, and Shane Morris is on his way soon too.


In the Words of TomVh, "Buckle up" State, cause were coming for the next 8.


October 17th, 2011 at 4:02 PM ^

this year's team is not one of the better teams we have had in 30 years. aside from a miracle against ND, we've beaten no one of particular note so far, and looked inept at both runnning and passing against a non elite MSU team.  we literally have a QB who can't pass the ball and has regressed.  my good friend scott hanson (NFL redzone host and huge UM fan) agreed on that.  denard has regressed dramatically as a passer.

we have a first year coach and O.Coord who are trying to fit squares in circles.  i hoped for 8-4 this year and will be happy if we achieve that, hopefully with a competitive game vs OSU.  after the last three years, that is good enough for me.

as for MSU, they are not legit.  they are a regional power only, never a national power.  they take advantage of our down years. good for them.  come 2014, we'll see who's on top again.


October 17th, 2011 at 4:50 PM ^

This team will not end up being one of the worst in the last 30.  We have a good chance to finish strong and are not out of the Big 10 picture yet, especially with Sparty still having to play Wisky and Nebraska.  It will be a good year if we can end the pain to Ohio, and it's only a matter of time before Sparty reverts back to mediocrity, especially with Hoke and co. crushing them in recruiting.


October 18th, 2011 at 1:53 AM ^

We need to wait until we see next years 2013 INSTATE RECRUITING class, before we can have any hope of answering this question...

So, arguing whether or not MSU is here to stay as a dominate team at this point is a useless endeavor. We can debate it all day long (which we have) and throw out the same worn out arguments (aka. best vs. worst teams in 50 years) to make us feel better...

MSU lives and dies by instate recruiting, which they have dominated over the last 3 years (insert obligatory RR bash).

Background: 2009-2011 instate (UofM to MSU)

5star = 2  to 1

4star = 4 to 7

3star = 7 to 15


However, this year we might as well call MSU's instate recruiting class “Dantonio's Devastated Domination”…

Scout.com class of 2012

Michigan #1*

Michigan State #26

*[caveats for their ranking being “somewhat” influenced by how much revenue they expect to gain for dolling out ranks (see: ND every year)


Breakdown (just pulling from Ace’s great info)

Top 100

UofM = 2

MSU = 1


5 Star

UofM = 1

MSU = 0


4 Star

UofM = 12 (5 instate) (W00T!)

MSU = 2 (1 instate)


3 Star

UofM = 10 (2 instate)

MSU = 12 (3 instate)

That is 5 more “premium” instate recruits for UoM this year!


BUT, as promising as those numbers are they could be an anomaly related to the first year boost a lot of new head coaches see.

SO, the Class of 2013** is where we need to look for “educated guessing material”.

IF, (big if) Hoke&Company is able to out recruit MSU instate again DESPITE losing to them 4 years in a row, we will have our answer and if not... (Insert Horrible Thoughts)…

AND, even if we do wreak Dantonio’s boat in recruiting it might take a year or two to show dividends… shudder…

** 5star MI, QB Shane Morris has already committed to UoM class of 2013


I Wrote a 4 Wo…

October 17th, 2011 at 2:55 PM ^

I agree with everything in your post except the title, and that we should hold them up to the same level of rival as OSU.

Before the coaching change/scheme transformation, they couldn't win shit. Why should that change because they've beaten us while everyone else has as well? Also, it's much more fun to say they're not to feed the inferiority complex. I don't want them to grow out of it because it's so much funnier when they say, "GIVE US ATTENTION GIVE US ATTENTION" and we just say, "Why?"


October 17th, 2011 at 2:55 PM ^

Thanks for making me laugh. I really hope you aren't serious. MSU wishes that we considered them our biggest rival. OSU and ND are both bigger rivalries than MSU.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:09 PM ^

how many more ass kickings does it take before we give them the privilege of being our rival.  Your right, MSU v. UM is not a rivalry right now.  For it to be considered a rivalry again we actually have to beat them once in a while.  Wake up man.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:12 PM ^

I hate them with the fire of a thousand suns.  And they're a pretty good team.  They're just not on the level of OSU, ND, and others.  They're going to have to put a lot of great years on the table before they get there...It all comes down to your definition of "legit," of course.  I just don't want to praise them for anything. 


October 17th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^

its a big rivalry for a lot of fans, because we either live wit Msu fans or work with them. and its tough when they rub it in your face when uofm loses, and its been 4 years since we can say anything.


October 17th, 2011 at 2:58 PM ^

They're a pretty good Big Ten team in a year in which most of the league's powers are down.  When Michigan is Michigan, they're a national player.  MSU is not - see Alabama, stomps balls off of MSU, 2011 bowl game. 


October 17th, 2011 at 3:03 PM ^

I know that every Michigan fan considers OSU to be the biggest rival but I think it's time for MSU to be held in the same regard.

I stopped reading at that point. Part of a rivalry for me is respect for the opposing institution. I respect OSU. I respect ND. I don't respect MSU. I know some M fans consider them our 2nd rival but to me they're 3rd and frankly aren't close to ND in 2nd.

Is MSU a good team? Sure. We haven't beat them in 4 years and they've had a nice little run of success. I don't see though how them being "legit" affects rivalry standing.



October 17th, 2011 at 3:00 PM ^

MSU is legit as a football team? I'll give you that. But no way do I believe MSU is as big as a rival as OSU. Also, never play down to another team's level. We are better than that. The hate does not need to be reciprocal. 

we the roses

October 17th, 2011 at 3:01 PM ^

There toughest road win the past 3 years now has been at Penn State last year (they weren't that good). The team has played very well at home under Dantonio, but not well on the road and the schedule has set up for them very nicely these past 2 years. Last year no OSU and Wisconsin and Notre Dame at home. This year, Wisconsin at home with 2 tough road trips to  Nebraska and Iowa. Lets wait for the verdict until those games are over.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:02 PM ^

MSU is having their best run in probably 50 years and we are having our worst run in close to 100. 

That's not to take anything away from them, but it is a simple fact.

What separates us from them is the ability to maintain a high level of success over the long term. I have no doubt that will continue to be the case moving forward.

We just have to stay the course.

So in short I disagree with basically everything the OP said. 


October 17th, 2011 at 3:02 PM ^

What has MSU done to deserve being our biggest rival? Did I miss a ten year war, or multiple MNC's they've racked up, or a game with so much on the line that it's nicknamed "The Game"? I'd bet if you asked a thinking OSU fan they would be disguisted at thinking MSU deserved our rivalry like they do.

While we're at it, we might as well include Illinois and Minnesota on the same level as OSU. They hate us as well.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:02 PM ^

We lost because of Bad playcalling, bad QB play, and bad blociking. They are not now nor ever will be on an equal level with OSU.  This years team is not 1 of the 4 worst michigan teams of the past 30 years IMO..I feel like the coaches let these kids down on saturday..


October 17th, 2011 at 3:02 PM ^

You have to factor in that Michigan is 40% out-of-state.  While the MSU rivalry is significant, especially to the in-staters, it doesn't even approach OSU, and may not even be as big as ND.  If I could have 1 win every year, it would be against OSU, hands down, I wouldn't even think about occasionally beating MSU just for fun.  OSU first, always, and most.  They are a national power, just like Michigan...MSU is a regional power and hasn't proven otherwise (look at last year).  Let's see them beat us 4 more times in the next 20 years, but even then OSU would still be a bigger rival.


It's also mutual rivalry with Ohio.  They hate us the most, bar none.  That's part of what makes it so special, the mutual rival-respect thing going on (or lack of it).


October 17th, 2011 at 3:03 PM ^

I'm saying beating Michigan four years in a row is tiresome when each contest looked we are completely overmatched.  I understand the schematics that went in to this game (i.e. trash tornado, inexplicably bad playcalling in the 2nd half) but those fourteen personal fouls MSU committed had a huge effect on this game.  They wanted to make Denard scared.  Who did Michigan intimidate?  


October 17th, 2011 at 3:28 PM ^

Those penalties almost allowed us to tie it in the fourth. They were stupid, bush league bullshit plays and Michigan should never stoop to that level. If MSU wasn't that dirty the game might have been a blowout.

I do think we need to play with more intensity against these guys, but I don't want to elevate them just because they are a good team who has beaten us 4 years in a row. MSU is our 2nd rival. They are in state and we compete head to head for recruits. They are in our division. It will always be important to beat them.

And those of us who live in Michigan have to deal with the MSU fans on a daily basis. I hate losing to them, but they are not our equals as a program and never will be.


October 17th, 2011 at 5:30 PM ^

"each context looked we are completely overmatched"

I think what the marbles above are trying to say is that you perceived that on Saturday (despite a 7 -7 score at the half, a chance to tie the game and the margin of victory resultant of a pick six, where we averaged 5.2 yards per carry and the defense gave up 21 points to a senior QB) that this Michigan team was overmatched. 

That's completely wrong. We had inexplicably bad playcalling? Yes. But overmatched. Srsly.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:06 PM ^

Why? The fact that they are so excited about beating us 4 years in a row just shows how desperate they are. Did anybody care when we beat them 6 years in a row ('02-'07)? Did Chad Henne and Mike Hart run around holding up 6 fingers after beating them in '07? That's the point. They are a mediocre program that has been able to take advantage of us in the worst 3-year span in our history. Kudos to them for doing that, but it's not something that demands respect.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:34 PM ^

The OP is overeacting but I don't think we should diminish MSU just becaue we lost to them. They are a big rival. An in state Big Ten program who competes for our recruits. Who wouldn't want Gholston(despite the cheap play), Lawrence Thomas or Edwin Baker on our team right now?

It is what it is. MSU is better than they have been in a while. They are better than us right now. But they do not have the national appeal or history that we have. We should be able to build our team up so that we are better than them in the near future.



October 17th, 2011 at 3:52 PM ^

That's fair. Maybe "care" isn't the right word. But my point is that, before Michigan's football program imploded a few years ago, the expectation was that we would win. So us winning 6 years in a row, even though it was great and people probably did care, it was expected, so there wasn't the same amount of hoopla surrounding it.

These last 3 years have inarguably been the most tumultuous, embarrassing, humiliating, etc., years in the history of our program. It's not the same as them beating us in 2001 when there was stability and depth in our program.

And I wasn't intending to bash their players. From just a talent-focused perspective, I would love it if we had landed Gholston a couple years ago. Obviously, he's proven himself to be a turd, but he's still a talented player.


October 17th, 2011 at 5:23 PM ^

I completely agree.  A Michigan team would never taunt their opponent by holding up the number of fingers for consecutive wins (especially against MSU, as for at least during one streak in history, several of our teams' players would have run out of fingers).  Plus, I give our team props for not stooping to their level (I would probably had wanted to hold up one finger back at them).  If they really want respect, they simply need to go about their business, and just keep the series competitive, while quietly winning as many games againt Michigan as they as can.  Respect would then eventually come over time.  Dantonio and State need to learn that respect is earned, and not just a given.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:07 PM ^

We have been the dominant team on the field for years without having to play down to the level of MSU. When we play up to Michigan's standards, this will not be an issue. MSU was a better team Saturday and beat a good (yes good) Michigan team. Michigan needs to be great, because every week they will get the best from every team that plays us. Illinois, MSU both consider us their biggest rivalry and a little bit of most every other team, has a major dislike of Michigan.  This was earned by being one of the top two teams in the confereance for 40 years (and beyond that).

Michigan never should play down to other teams levels.  Leaders and Best, This is Michigan.


October 17th, 2011 at 3:08 PM ^

I respect Ohio State because I know they will always be good and I almost fear them (obviously I still always think we will win).  I have no respect or fear for Michigan State.  


October 17th, 2011 at 3:08 PM ^

Michigan State may have the No. 2 ranked defense right now (186 ypg), but Wisconsin is not Michigan. Let's see if putting 9 in the box against Russell Wilson & Co. works to the same effect.  Unlike Michigan, Wisconsin's offensive line is absolutely massive. They also have 2 backs (Ball and White) who will easily surpass 1,000 yards rushing this fall.

Meanwhile, Russell Wilson is hitting on 74% of his passes, has excellent touch on long throws, and he has very good weapons in Abrederis and Toon at WR.

With Michigan, we knew they were shaky in wins before the loss to MSU.  Wisconsin has not looked shaky at all in any games they've played. They look more like a freight train.

Having your best players suspended is also unlikely to help the Spartans cause.