Shouldn't NCAA ban "Fighting Irish" name?
With the Fighting Sioux nickname finally getting the axe (pun absolutely intended), shouldn't the NCAA look into banning the Fighting Irish name next? Stereotyping Native Americans as being aggressive and violent is just as bad as stereotyping Irish people as being aggressive and violent, right? We know this will never happen, but I think it is very interesting that people are always on a crusade about "offensive" Native American names yet the "Fighting" in ND's name is never questioned.
EDIT: I didn't get the point across that my beef is with the NCAA for changing North Dakota's name. I don't have a problem with the "Fighting Irish" name, I just have a problem with the double standard.
all sign a petition saying that we find the name offensive. Imagine if every fan who hated ND signed. There would be like 100 million names
April 13th, 2010 at 11:23 PM ^
More like 100 trillion!
(for some reason I said this in my head in a Zoolander voice...)
It's all ridiculous.. They change the names of all of these teams, so they can appease three annoying people who have nothing else better to do than complain....
the wolverine population may be getting offended lately... I think we should re-consider what we're doing to the image and the feelings of the wolverines... poor little guys
it involves who complains. I'm not sure if the Sioux complained, but enough Native Americans have requested changes from similar school mascots that they almost have to make it universal without express permission from the tribe. Until/unless the Irish complain about ND's mascot, the NCAA wouldn't touch it. Partly because it's Notre Dame, yes, but I would think unless someone affected has an issue with it, the NCAA is going to interfere as little as possible. It helps that ND is well-known/respected enough that most people aren't going to mind their heritage being associated with it.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:12 PM ^
The Sioux didn't complain. One tribe voted that it was OK and the other tribe's bylaws don't allow them to vote on it.
Flysociety3, I'm with you. I'm not seriously saying they should change ND's name. It's ridiculous that they try to change any team's name.
Being Irish I am offended. They need to change their name to the Drinking Irish.
I think they should be changed to the souless gingers.
Here's the difference: The Sioux weren't the founders of North Dakota, the Seminoles didn't start Florida State and the Chippewas weren't the first students at Central Michigan. All of these schools were founded by white people who chose aggressive Indian tribes (albeit the local ones) as their mascot.
Irish Catholics actually founded the University of Notre Dame. To this day, a large number of the students at ND are Irish, and Irish people across the country identify with Notre Dame, whether or not they have any actual ties to the university. This is a major distinction, and is likely the reason why they don't hear anything about it.
Notre Dame was founded by French priests (hence its name).
liked his Murphy's stout, though, so you know, Irish in spirit.
The French preists did not select the mascot, however. The point is not who founded the universities in question, but who picked their mascots.
But it is worth pointing out how incongruous it is that the representatives of the Université de Notre-Dame du Lac are called the "Fighting Irish." The school's nickname does not reflect its French heritage.
They choose that name because who ever heard of the Fighting French.
I regret that I can only +1 for that comment.
And the Surrendering French just didn't have the right ring to it.
April 14th, 2010 at 11:12 AM ^
But that's who they are. Is it right for them to be duplicitous? (And should a religious school really be "Fighting" anything?)
And Alter Boys were mounted.
April 14th, 2010 at 12:38 AM ^
not funny, and it didn't even rhyme.
Is that a reference to post-op ladyboys?
Or just boys with bodymods in general?
April 14th, 2010 at 12:55 AM ^
Well said.
Its also worth to note the historical difference between Irish people and Native Americans. Though the Irish were discriminated against in their own right in the 1800's, native american people were systematically slaughtered and uprooted from their lands by our very own government. The least we can do is give them enough respect to let them be able to decide whether or not they consider these schools / pro teams names to be offensive to their culture.
Its really not the same as "I'm Irish and I don't care", so they shouldn't care either. Maybe if your particular ethnic group was treated the same as Native Americans were, you might feel differently.
end rant.
But, history books have really not done a very good job portraying just how much the Irish were hated when they got here. The only similarity I see today is the illegal Mexicans that stream across the border.
There were even anti-irish groups that were very similar to the Klan who's job was to terrorize the Irish immigrants often on behalf of the mining companies. My 3x great-grandfather's grave had a marker on it that family had always thought was a medal placed there by an Irish heritage group.
My father looked it up and found out that it was instead a calling card of the anti-Irish group. Sorta like burnt crosses in yards for the Klan.
April 14th, 2010 at 10:02 AM ^
This is an epic fail...and oddly appropriate for the university being discussed.
Good point WolvinLA2.
I am Irish BTW, but do not feel offended by Notre Dame's nickname. I think it is funny and accurate, in my case anyways. I'm known to have a short temper.
Also Irish, I am more insulted by the endless stream of supposidly Irish bars with neon green shamrocks everywhere. A true Irish bar should be dark and smokey (so if your wife comes in looking for you you will have time to hide before her eyes adjust) and serve good whiskey. Being Irish, and being well versed in the Irish immigrants of the 1800s and early 1900s faced, I would still not compare them to the struggles of Native Americans, though. Although no one posting on this board actually participated in the attempted genocides of the various tribes, I still find it repugnant to suggest that the same culture that spent a century trying to eliminate Native Americans suddenly were 'honoring' them with these nicknames.
But the two situations seem drastically different to me. Native American mascot names were largely selected by, like, white people who thought that having a war-like, fightin'-type of mascot would be cool, right? Notre Dame's mascot was selected by, I am assuming, a bunch of Irish Catholic dudes. Makes a difference in how offensive something is, right?
Really. Why stop there? A job left undone, if you ask me.
You could make a similar argument for thousands of mascots/nicknames. The point is is that these nicknames often have no true association to the group they represent.
I really don't know where I was going to go with this since I somewhat proved my own point wrong, so I guess I'll just reference what was already said and that is that you don't see very many Irish groups offended by the nickname and until they are you won't see Notre Dame changing.
That's quite sad in my opinion. I can't imagine how I would feel if Michigan had to change their nickname.
When Miami was forced to change from Redskins to Redhawks it was very disconcerting. I still think redhawk is a lame mascot.
As opposed to Miami's former nickname, Redhawks is one million times better. Their former nickname is disgusting.
Well what about the Ragin' Cajuns of UL-Lafayette? Sounds pretty aggresive to me
I heard that members of the local Sioux tribe were fine with the name and favored them keeping it.
Not sure where I heard this, but I think it was on Dan Patrick's radio show.
The "fighting Irish" nickname came from a Union civil war brigade of Irish Americans that carried that name. The priest attached to that brigade, including during their involvement at Gettysburg, later became the President of Notre Dame and dubbed the sports teams with that name in honor of the brave men he served with in the Civil War. I think there is a difference...
April 13th, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^
Probably not the true story given the myriad other stories attached to the name, but even if it is, the logo is a stubby leprechaun caricature. If the NCAA thinks two simple feathers are "hostile and abusive" (W&M) then surely a caricature is, yes?
April 13th, 2010 at 10:21 PM ^
Well, there are identical statues, one on the battlefield at Gettysburg and one on the Notre Dame campus, commemorating the priest and are inscribed with references to the "fighting Irish" brigade. I live near Gettysburg and have seen them both. Whatever else got attached to the name along the way, that is actually the origin.
None the less, and I can't believe i am now defending the domers in any way, but a leprechaun is not a caricature of an Irish guy. Leprechauns are mythical figures in Irish folk lore.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:34 PM ^
If that were the origin, you'd think the ND website itself would say so, but they don't even mention it as a possibility:
http://www.und.com/trads/nd-m-fb-name.html
The most generally accepted explanation is that the press coined the nickname as a characterization of Notre Dame athletic teams, their never-say-die fighting spirit and the Irish qualities of grit, determination and tenacity. The term likely began as an abusive expression tauntingly directed toward the athletes from the small, private, Catholic institution. Notre Dame alumnus Francis Wallace popularized it in his New York Daily News columns in the 1920s. The Notre Dame Scholastic, in a 1929 edition, printed its own version of the story: "The term 'Fighting Irish' has been applied to Notre Dame teams for years. It first attached itself years ago when the school, comparatively unknown, sent its athletic teams away to play in another city ...At that time the title 'Fighting Irish' held no glory or prestige ... "The years passed swiftly and the school began to take a place in the sports world ...'Fighting Irish' took on a new meaning. The unknown of a few years past has boldly taken a place among the leaders. The unkind appellation became symbolic of the struggle for supremacy of the field. ...The team, while given in irony, has become our heritage. ...So truly does it represent us that we unwilling to part with it ..."I don't know how old the statue at Notre Dame is, but I'd bet on that explanation being a backdated one. And the leprechaun itself may be an Irish legend, but the team isn't called the Leprechauns, and that leprechaun looks absolutely nothing like the actual Irish legend of one; it looks like the American stereotype the same way Chief Wahoo looks like the American stereotype of an Indian. Understand I'm not arguing that ND should drop the nickname, just that the NCAA's arguments for forcing out Fighting Sioux all apply in spades to Notre Dame, and they're raging hypocrites for not acting on it.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:22 PM ^
The obvious difference is money and influence. Notre Dame has it; William & Mary doesn't.
Imagine if other schools had named their mascots after the local indigenous population. The we'd have the OSU White Trash Truckers.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:05 PM ^
Or the UGA Racist Rednecks
April 13th, 2010 at 11:31 PM ^
That was awesome.
April 13th, 2010 at 11:37 PM ^
I'd cheer for the University of Miami Geriatric Retirees.
Unfortunately, they are not native. All immigrant snow birds.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:19 PM ^
Changing only nicknames referring to Native Americans while leaving those that refer to other groups is politically correct hypocritical racist nonsense.
The best answer would be to tell the overly sensitive imbeciles protesting nicknames to %^&*& off and get a life.
As a Norwegian-American, I am not offended by the numerous Viking nicknames and anybody offended by other ethnic nicknames is an idiot.
The double standard is seriously offensive not the nicknames.
April 13th, 2010 at 10:31 PM ^
I'm native american. The caricatures they use of us are racist. I haven't heard about this country taking viking land to build a university. But, that's what happened to us. So, if we don't want you to use our faces as your mascot... fucking deal with it and pick an animal mascot a-hole.
As if the attempted genocide wasn't enough, now I have to be associated with shitty teams like North Dakota, Cleveland Indians, and Washington Redskins...
April 13th, 2010 at 11:17 PM ^
S'not as if the Irish didn't face their share of discrimination around here either. "No Irish Need Apply"....and if someone tells me I have apologizing to do because some of my ancestors were French explorers that killed an Indian or fifty, then the Irish side of me will be waiting to hear from an Englishman.
April 13th, 2010 at 11:49 PM ^
Check out #2 on the list:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18487_6-ridiculous-history-myths-you-pro…
April 13th, 2010 at 11:58 PM ^
The plight of the Irish in the U.S. just doesn't equal the plight of American Indians. The Irish were discriminated against for a time. American Indians were almost wiped off the continent...Also, I don't think anyone is saying that anyone needs to apologize. The issue is that some American Indians don't like the use of some American-Indian-based names. People should be called what they want to be called. If my neighbors are the Johannsons, I don't call them the Johnsons. I also don't caricature them and use their likenesses without their permission.