?? on rules for admission for a transfer like A. Kinard

Submitted by NateVolk on September 21st, 2010 at 7:57 PM

2 Part question. I'd appreciate anybody's knowledge to straighten me out.

1. With a kid like Antonio Kinard at a prep school, does Michigan generally have a recruiter or someone within the football department who monitors their progress and even helps them by laying out necessary classes that will make them more likely to become compliant?  Or is this sort of interaction and involvement not allowed? 

Probably a good idea to Ignore part 2 if it isn't allowed. Save on your eyes.

2. If it is allowed, why would it be any more difficult to get Junior College or Prep School players into Michigan? 

Is it just because they are borderline students in high school and their struggles often continue at Junior College? Or does Michigan keep a tougher standard for them then players who come directly from high school? 

I went back and read old posts on Antonio and also Junior College transfers in general. One poster mentioned that we don't pursue them because Rich had said that it is too difficult to get them into Michigan.  Does anybody know why?

Kansas State built their program from nowhere in the 90s on a sort of mastery of junior college recruiting. I read that they got a lot of seasoned more physically mature guys, especially on defense.

My point in this mess of a post:

It seems like if the rules allowed us to spot guys who we could help get compliant, then we offer them contingent on them following through with the plan the recruiter lays out, we could pick up a good mature player here and there.

I am not asking about an individual case like Kinard who we already have a bond with, but about guys that we spot later when they are already in junior college.

Comments

teldar

September 21st, 2010 at 8:11 PM ^

Pure and simple, is my understanding. U of M does actually have requirements for athletes beyond what most schools have. As for the first part, no idea.

WestCBlue

September 21st, 2010 at 8:09 PM ^

We don't take JC recruits almost ever, due to academic restrictions to get into school.  It's not really an option.  I think we have taken one in the 2 decades or something crazy like that.

Prep school should not be a problem academically like a JC kid would have, but I don't know if we go after them or not.  I especially question Kinnard in this class.  

Brodie

September 21st, 2010 at 9:42 PM ^

I've always found that odd. The university takes several hundred juco transfers a year. I know those students are typically exceptional students, but it's not like most of our scholarship athletes could actually get into the university based on their grades anyway.

me

September 21st, 2010 at 8:16 PM ^

This is all just my understanding and I could be way wrong

 

Is the requirement to make progress towards a degree.  At the end of each year of college and athlete must have a pre-determined number of credits, which obviously goes up as he gets older.  The credist must be in a particular major and show progress towards a degree.

Now the difference between JC and Prep is what that clock starts counting.  A kid in JC is technically in college while a prep kid is in high school.  So let's look at two kids transferring in after a year.  A kid from prep would be coming in as a Freshman and would be starting on a clean slate.  A kid from JC would be starting as a sophomore.  So that means he must already have a certain amount of credits and by the end of that first year, he must have sophomore level credits.  However, JC classes don't generally transfer to UM, so these kids lose the credits and are really behind this standard.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_toward_degree

SanDiegoWolverine

September 21st, 2010 at 9:14 PM ^

I knew a handful of kids who transferred into Engineering School after either 2 or 3 years in community college (Junior College).  They just lost a year, so if they had done 3 years at Junior College they had 2 years left at Michigan.

I imagine the real reason is that kids whose grades aren't even good enough to pass the clearinghouse out of high school are probably not likely to get up to Michigan's bare minimum standards for football players after two year at JUCO.  The pool of players worth going after is probably pretty small when considering admissions.  But from a normal student prospective it is much easier to get into Michigan after JUCO than straight from high school.

me

September 21st, 2010 at 9:19 PM ^

an engineering student at JUCO is actually taking real classes that would transfer.  A football player at Fort Scott is likely not taking such classes.  And if your engineering student is losing a year, imagine how many years  JUCO kid is losing.  

So yeah JUCO classes can transfer assuming the kid is taking the right classes.  Someone like Panter who had a 4.0 out of high school was likely taking the right classes.

PurpleStuff

September 21st, 2010 at 10:36 PM ^

There aren't really any eligibility requirements to play JUCO ball.  I knew guys in high school who played at that level who were taking remedial english and math classes with a few things like Intro to Film (basically just watching movies, from what I gathered) thrown in for good measure. 

Most JUCO's do some sort of basic skills testing when kids first enroll and then place them in math/english classes accordingly.  The guys I know who never left the JUCO (to play ball or otherwise) had to pass 3-4 math/english classes before they could even start on the transferable English 101 type courses (and amassed a bajillion useless credits in the time it took to realize they were never going to pass).  For the average academic casualty (kid who couldn't quality out of high school) forced to go the JUCO route, they are highly unlikely to place into the college level classes and probably even less likely to complete them in time to transfer.  If they have to take remedial classes that won't transfer over, they'd have to squeeze all the stuff they missed in high school plus two years worth of real college classes into that two year window (since their eligibility clock keeps ticking even if they don't transfer right away) to get into a place like Michigan.  Not an easy task for folks who had academic difficulties to begin with.

umhero

September 21st, 2010 at 11:13 PM ^

The difference is between athletes and non-athletes.  An athlete has to be on track to graduate in five years while a non-athlete doesn't have that requirement.   So even if all of the credits for the non-athlete weren't transferable they can behave like incoming freshmen once they've arrived at Michigan.

jmblue

September 21st, 2010 at 8:18 PM ^

A prep school kid is still essentially a high school student and can be admitted as a regular freshman.  There are no particular issues there.  We've taken in several prep school guys over the years, in both football and basketball (Bernard Robinson Jr. was one). 

Jucos are a different story because the university generally does not accept many course credits from community colleges.  We have managed to get a couple admitted over the years but it usually doesn't work out. 

WolvinLA2

September 21st, 2010 at 8:47 PM ^

This.  Prep school is high school, for all intents and purposes.  If, after a recruits year of prep school, they have the grades and test scores necessary, they'll be admitted.  There's no transfering of credits necessary, and there's no eligibility lost.  Chris Perry was another kid who went to prep school before UM.  That worked out OK for us.

MGoShoe

September 21st, 2010 at 8:45 PM ^

...a prep school student like Kinard won't transfer into Michigan (assuming he matriculates), he'll enter as a freshman. 

As with all kids with clearinghouse issues, Kinard has to reach a certain minimum standard for core course GPA and standardized test score (SAT or ACT) results.  The higher one element is, the lower the other element can be.

14.3.1.1.2 Initial-Eligibility Index. Freshmen may establish eligibility using the following eligibility index:
Core GPA  SAT Sum ACT Core GPA  SAT Sum ACT Core GPA  SAT Sum ACT
3.550 & above 400 37 3.025 610 51 2.500 820 68
3.525 410 38 3.000 620 52 2.475 830 69
3.500 420 39 2.975 630 52 2.450 840-850 70
3.475 430 40 2.950 640 53 2.425 860 70
3.450 440 41 2.925 650 53 2.400 860 71
3.425 450 41 2.900 660 54 2.375 870 72
3.400 460 42 2.875 670 55 2.350 880 73
3.375 470 42 2.850 680 56 2.325 890 74
3.350 480 43 2.825 690 56 2.300 900 75
3.325 490 44 2.800 700 575 2.275 910 76
3.300 500 44 2.775 710 58 2.250 920 77
3.275 510 45 2.750 720 59 2.225 930 78
3.250 520 46 2.725 730 59 2.200 940 79
3.225 530 46 2.700 730 60 2.175 950 80
3.200 540 47 2.675 740-750 61 2.150 960 80
3.175 550 47 2.650 760 62 2.125 960 81
3.150 560 48 2.625 770 63 2.100 970 82
3.125 570 49 2.600 780 64 2.075 980 83
3.100 580 49 2.575 790 65 2.050 990 84
3.075 590 50 2.550 800 66 2.025 1000 85
3.050 600 50 2.525 810 67 2.000 1010 86

14.3.1.3.2 Combined Test Scores. For students using the SAT examination, the highest scores achieved on the critical reading and mathematics sections of the SAT from two different national testing dates may be combined in determining whether the student has met the minimum test-score requirements. For students using the ACT examination, the highest scores achieved on the individual subtests of the ACT from more than one national testing date or state-administered examination may be combined in determining whether the student’s sum score has met the minimum test-score requirement.

Wine Country W…

September 21st, 2010 at 9:15 PM ^

In California, JC transfers--for both athletes and non-athletes--are common.  Curricula at the UC, CSU, and the community college system are designed to work in tandem, so core classes taken at a JC fulfill requirements at San Diego State or Berkeley, for that matter.

Although I'm two decades removed from Ann Arbor, I have no recollection of ever meeting anyone who tranferred in from a JC. (I ran into a lot of prep school kids, but they were from the snooty, blue-blood schools back east.) It might be the case that the Michigan baccalaureate is  not designed to accomodate transfers.  That's not to say that it's impossible, I just don't think it's very common.

bringthewood

September 21st, 2010 at 10:12 PM ^

BSchool in the 1980's was a two year school so we had lots of transfers.  We had a couple from Grand Rapids CC but my guess is they has a nearly 4.0 taking rigorous classes.  Supposedly Washtenaw CC works with U of M to get more credits transferred but I'm not sure if they even field a football team (I think the answer is no).

I think the issue is Michigan has not had trouble recruiting 4 year students and prefers that route.  I think finding top flight talent with sufficient course load with a good grade point to transfer is just too hard to make it a point of focus.  I think it's as much of a coaches preference as it is difficulty if finding the right guys.

Rickey Green who play BB at Michigan (and was a star) in the late 70's was one JC beyond those already mentioned.  OJ,yes that OJ was a JC before going to USC and having those gloves that did not fit.

JC3

September 21st, 2010 at 10:22 PM ^

The coaches are keeping track of Kinard's progress (which, for the record, he's doing very well both on and off the field at Hargrave). They're still deciding if they're going to re-offer him. With a few recent defections though and our inconsistent LB play, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up with an offer again. 

Sextus Empiricus

September 22nd, 2010 at 1:27 AM ^

Callahan set records for JC recruits at Nebraska (of course Osbourne was no slouch in this respect either.)  Pelini is less JC minded but still has many more than Minnesota and Tim Brewster the previous B10 leader.

Nebraska as a school takes many more JCs.  Their website has pre approved accreditation to schools in Florida and California Community Colleges (and is a Ft. Scott pipeline.)   Michigan doesn't come close to being so transfer friendly.  Some schools have upper level classes that need students.  Michigan doesn't have that problem or that agenda (some schools hold spots for JuCos.)  If Michigan wanted to change this, they could.

 

ChalmersE

September 22nd, 2010 at 11:33 AM ^

Many of the athletes at Juco schools wind up there because academics keep them from getting into their colleges of choice.  However, if I remember correctly Panter's situation was a little different from the typical Juco recruit. I believe his high school didn't have 11 on 11 football so he received little or no D1 interest coming out of high school.  He then went to Juco to show he could hack it as a D1 player.