RR's Connection to WVU Allegations, Why is This a Big Deal?
So, I was listening to the radio on my way home from work and the big dicussion was how horrible the WVU allegations are for Rich Rodriguez. The argument that was being made ws that with the allegations here at Michigan everyone fell on one side of the fence or the other. Either you felt it was an honest mistake, or you thought he was dirty, dirty, dirty. However, now that this happened at WVU, they didn't understand how you could believe it was an honest mistake.
I don't see how this woudl change anyone's opinion one way or the other. If he's dirty, he's probably going to be dirty everywhere he goes (for the record, I don't believe he's a blatent cheater). However, if it's an honest mistake, wouldn't he keep to the same practice schedule he used at WVU? Why would it be different? Hell, I'd be more upset if the practice issues only started once he got to Michigan. That seems worse to me. So, if I'm missing how the WVU cement his reputation as a dirty guy, please let me know.
Stuff like this is just getting so incredbly old. It's just another reason to hear people bitch about the guy, and I can't stand it. Thank God the season is less than a month away.
On motownsports an MSU fan was using the allegations at WVU to somehow vindicate how now, more than ever, we know RR is a cheater and a bad guy. I just aksed, regardless of your conclusion on whether it was an honest mistake or knowingly cheating why are you treating it as new news. We were already aware this happened at Michigan so wouldnt it stand to reason that if this was the system he had in place he did it at WVU as well. Seemed like a no brainer to me.
August 6th, 2010 at 10:54 AM ^
Reasoning with a poster on mlive, motownsports, etc., is just a losing proposition. And a waste of time.
way people in the MSM in detroit are going to use this to pile onto richrod... just be thankful that valenti is on vacation this week...
Hey guys, this is no different than a potential story that says " Rich Rod doesn't beat his wife since moving to Michigan" It doesn't mean that he beat her before, it is just fodder. There are 29 days left until the season. Practice starts Monday, there are so many other things to talk about that haven't been hashed to death. For this collection of bloggers this is not news.
It's not that big a deal. Keep in mind the radio guys need something to talk about, and for some (we all know who I mean), they'll take any reason to bash RichRod.
These new allegations are not proof that he's dirty, because, you're right, it's just as easy to conclude that it was an honest mistake and he just carried on the same practices.
What really upsets me is this just adds life to this story. With the hearings coming up in Seattle, I was hoping it would put all of this behind us. Now it just keeps the story going.
IMO, you have to be naive to believe that. It's much more probable that RR, like, in my estimation, 90% of all head coaches at BCS programs, was monitoring summer workouts through grad assistants and quality control people. I actually don't believe for a second that he didn't know this happened. And that it happened at WVA actually improves the odds that this was not a mistake on his part.
To be clear, I do not think these violations are an indication that he is "dirty" or "cheating," nor do I consider these things "major." I think this is an area that coaches routinely push and stretch the limits of the rules. But I don't think these were honest mistakes either.
I wasn't trying to indicate that RR is clean, only that this information doesn't move the needle towards clean or dirty. If he is knowingly cheating (or pushing the limits), he was doing it then and was doing it when he got to AA. If it was an honest mistake, he was doing it then, and when he got to AA.
As much as I want to believe that he had no idea that he was breaking the rules, I can't see how he and his staff at either school wasn't trying to push the envelope as far as the rules are concerned or trying to coach from afar.
It very may be that most major programs are doing similar things,but the fact that RR's staff at two schools apparently have had non-coaching staff members "coaching" players in off seasons drills says either he is trying to stretch the rules or doesn't know them. Either way that is a scary scenario because it opens the jar of questions of what else he is not aware of?
I believe he's a good guy and obviously an excellent coach, but some doubt about his attention to some details is disturbing. I also agree that his doing it at both places does say a lot about him not starting this just because he was at Michigan. The bad part of this could be that if the NCAA forces him to cut back on recruiting time on the road, that would again hurt Michigan. We'll have to wait and see what happens in Seattle.
The entire question of whether he cheated or not is built on one point, whether part time QC staffers can be considered part time Interdepartmental S&C staff in the off season.
Since the NCAA rules say it is OK for S&C staff with interdepartmental responsibilities can be present at voluntary workouts (for saftey reasons), then if the QC staffers have become S&C staffers in the off season it would be OK for them to be there, and any activiy conducted while they were there would be voluntary.
Because that interpretation was not OK (even though NCAA regulations are not explicit on the point), then every moment a QC staffer was acting as a S&C staffer becomes a countable athletic related activity.
The other question is whether 7 on 7 drills are voluntary workouts or not. (If not even S&C staff should not be present.)
Beyond that, the NCAA regulations are pretty clear on the number of coaches, and that staff who are not coaches cannot do coaching activities, but before our investigation not much definition seems to have been in place as to what constitues coaching activity.
Who knew helping someone stretch, attending a coaches meeting (keep in mind QC staff are there to learn how to coach), or throwing a ball back to a quarterback was considered coaching.
Rich's defense at UofM seems to be they had the OK from the compliance department to use the QC staffers as S&C staffers in the off season. This was based on a mis-communication between the football dept .and the compliance dept. and the NCAA. If that is true, then he thought they were there in a capacity in line with NCAA regulations. I.e., he is not a dirty cheater ...
violations to me say that this is a BS excuse. He's been defended by many saying in effect, "our crappy compliance office screwed up." I guess now they will say WVA's compliance office was incompetent too? Perhaps, but I don't buy it. I believe that there is a 90% probability that he knew he was pushing it or violating it in both places, but felt it was commonplace to try to get around these rules and so he did.
I want him as our coach this year and think there is nothing about any of these violations that should change his job status in any way. But let's take off the rose colored glasses IMO and see it for what I believe it is--a conscious effort to improve the team by pushing the boundaries of the rules both here and at WVA.
I see what you're saying. RR can't blame Michigan's compliance office anymore, because this happened, apparently, at WVA too.
What's even worse: didn't UM just hire WVA's Compliance guy to replace Brad LaBadie?
August 6th, 2010 at 12:00 PM ^
Brad Labadie did not work in the Compliance Services Office. Michigan did not hire "WVU's Compliance guy."
Coach Rodriguez did not "blame Michigan's compliance office." Coach Rodriguez was not accused of any NCAA violations in connection with Compliance Services Office or CARA issues. The one and only allegation against Head Coach Rodriguez at Michigan was that he "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance." That is the only allegation made in connection with his tenure at WVU. It is the exact same allegation that they are making against Bill Stewart at WVU.
at 2 different programs. So you believe his failure to monitor this at WVA and here was a simple, hones mistake two schools in a row? Feel free to believe that, but I think that's silly and willfully naive.
Again, IMO this is not an offense that merits any change in our thinking about him as a coach and person, but come on, it's just strains credibility to believe that he didn't know this was happening and that it was a rules issue--twice in a row.
What I am saying is that the concocted story by the Free Press compelled the NCAA to carefully investigate Michigan's monitoring of practices. And in the course of an investigation costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and involving hundreds of attorney hours -- surprise -- they found some violations of the NCAA's phonebook-sized rules on monitoring practice time.
As a part of its Michigan investigation, the NCAA looked into similar matters at WVU and -- surprise -- they found the same things. Meanwhile, The Ohio State University is self-reporting violations, the Columbus Dispatch's own Buckeye beat reporter is trying to figure out what that team is really doing, and the NCAA is continuing to adjust the rules in question.
A rational person would say, "Wow, what a bunch of flailing around for mostly nothing." A credulous Free Press reader would probably be asking, "My gosh how do they let this man continue at Michigan?"
BILL STEWART DID IT TOO! That means that EVERYBODY's compliance office is screwing up, and continues to screw up. If it had stopped as soon as he left, then yes. But no.
August 6th, 2010 at 12:35 PM ^
Or the NCAA's guidelines on countable hours and the job descriptoin of QC staffers is really so nebulous that Compliance Departments in schools around the country get this wrong all the time. The fact that two completely different organizations monitoring the activities of one coach produced similar mistakes just indicates to me that the NCAA needs to tighten up it's rulebook a bit.
... notice of allegations also state that this stuff was happening BEFORE Coach Rod arrived? Which means during Lloyd's time here too! I think the fact that it was happening here before his arrival and it continued to happen at WVU after his departure means the rules are not real clear on this stuff!
August 6th, 2010 at 11:00 AM ^
of RR's depravity. This master plan has been in place since BEFORE he got the job. The fact that he then cloned Bill Stewart in his lair to continue the practice at WVU just to cover his tracks shows that Dan Brown couldn't have drawn it up better.
I am sick of the MSM lapping this up without applying any brain cells to it. The fact that the practice happened before RR got here and that it continued after he left WVU really speaks to the NCAA rule itself and not the conduct of the coaches.
Actually, I see it the opposite way. If the WVA compliance department did not OK the use of QC staffers as S&C staffers, then why did they continue the practice for two years after Rich left right up until this spring when the allegations at Michigan were publically rolled out?
August 6th, 2010 at 11:54 AM ^
and the University's attorneys, and Coach Rodriguez, and Coach Rodriguez's attorneys, all disagree with you. And they've submitted about 110 pages worth of written response in that regard.
I expect that about 0.001% of Michigan football fans have read that response.
I expect that 98% of Michigan's fans have followed the story more or less through the Detroit Free Press. Not that everyone believes the Free Press reporting. Some number of Free Press readers (sadly, a small minority, probably) dispute and resent the Freep reporting.
But what does that leave, in terms of numbers? A very large portion of people in the State of Michigan who accept the Free Press reporting as accurate and significant. And a very large number of people in radio, television media in Michigan who are driven, even more superficially, by the Freep story. And a national sports media that is even more superficial when it comes to Michigan.
It is all an extremely ugly picture, very damaging to Michigan, and based on a "wildly exagerated if not flatly incorrect" original story. In the Free Press.
August 6th, 2010 at 12:33 PM ^
I am having a seriously bad day with duplicate posts. Maybe it is on my end of the Interwebs.
Why be thankful Valenti is on vacation? Who the hell cares what he would have to say. There is ZERO reason for any true UM fan to be listening to that self-serving blowhard. Let him pile on to his Spartan bretheren who managed a stellar 6-7 record last year, woo-hoo!!
I had no idea he was on vacation.
Valenti??? I don't even know what station he's on.
...a tempest in a teapot. Nominally excessive practice hours are no big deal to me at all -- especially when it's common knowledge that damn near every program in the country is guilty of the same thing. I believe every D1 coach is breathing a sigh of relief that RR is the scapegoat getting all the attention.
i honestly don't give a shit. I don't listen to sports talk radio for the most part except for pregame for Tigers and Wings. Who cares what the 24 hours news cycle has to say. We are under 29 days till football starts.
I have a video of a dude singing that looks like your avatar..lemme see if I can post it her for your viewing pleasure.
I would wager a guess that firstbase has seen the video and that's why he picked his avatar.
...and may I add, "TROLOLOLO!"
You can't honestly think he picked that avatar without seeing that video. Tell me it's a joke
August 6th, 2010 at 10:38 AM ^
easy peeps...now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
I would guess the WV compliance department gave the OK similar to ours. If this practice had stopped as soon as RR left I would be concerned as it would show prior intent.
The following things are going to happen:
1. Haters Gonna Hate
2. The ignorant and mostly disinterested will listen to whoever talks the loudest.
3. The NCAA will act professionally and not be swayed by either side.
4. You will lie back and take it like a man.
This shit is getting VERY old.
1. True
2. The ignorant are gonna beat it to death until Kiffin gets jealous and steals the headlines.
2a.The ESPN article mentions UM/RR more than it does WVU/Stewart so the "Spin" is "RR is a Cheater" not "Oops I misinterpreted the rule sorry let's move on."http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5440231
3. We'll see AUG 13th (please lets this be the end of the Drama)
4. yes still taking it like a man but I work in a building with weapons and I'm the unofficial UM spokesperson for my area of the world and I just want it to go away...(no I'm not going to go Postal but I can dream of the MSU/OSU/ND people fleeing in terror).
In summary, FUCK.
it's perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the NCAA for the head coach to yank a scholarship from a guy who has already moved into his dorm room. Yup, RR's the bad guy all right.
Maize and Blue...is right. This is an issue for the compliance department. It is the compliance department that interprets the rules that are handed down from the NCAA. If there is a question regarding the rules since since some of them are not entirely clear, it is up to the compliance department to tell the coach to keep doing what they are doing or to change what they are doing until they can get an interpretation from the NCAA.
The fact that RR apparently did similar things at WVU and UM is not surprising. The fact that two different compliance departments didn't do anything about it tells me that there are difficulties in interpreting the rule. I'm sure this will be made much clearer by the NCAA on the 14th. However, a new coach, as RR was at U of M, is not above the University's compliance department and it was up to them to say that things couldn't be run that way.
"The fact that two different compliance departments didn't do anything about it tells me that there are difficulties in interpreting the rule."
That's the money argument right there. AND, the fact that WVU didn't change AFTER RR left showed the rules interpretation wasn't driven by a nefarious scheme crafted by RR.
Nothing much to see here, folks...please move along to your regularly scheduled navel gazing and tea leave reading.
UM's compliance department did try to do something about it, they just failed miserably. If I remember correctly, they were requesting job descriptions on the QA guys in March of '08, three months into Rodriguez's tenure here. In my mind, this argues against the idea that there was difficulty interpreting the rule. UM's compliance people saw the issue, tried to do something about it, got stonewalled by the football program (Labadie for whatever reason), and failed escalate their inquiry to handle the issue.
August 6th, 2010 at 10:08 AM ^
I really don't get the witch-hunt here. I know the NCAA is "protecting" the student athlete and protecting the "integrity" of the game (wink, wink), but this should have all been taken care of in one fell swoop. At this point they are just dragging it out for the media. They asked for this information back when they launched the investigation at Michigan, and they are just now getting around to announcing the violations. Do they have the Freep running this darn thing. The confusing part is how they are treating a coach and school who were very transparent and completely compliant on all fronts, when other coaches who hide and run during one of these investigations gets away very little media. There are a number of coaches in the NCAA who get a program in trouble and run to a new job, get that one in trouble and then head off for another job all the while they dodge the NCAA at every front. These guys are repeat offenders who are never held culpable. Yet they are continuing a witch-hunt on a coach and school who comply.
It's a big deal to the MSM because they can milk it for clicks, views, phone calls, and Neilsen ratings. It's a big deal for MSU fans because it helps deflect focus on their eleven or so scholly players who now have documented adult criminal records. It's a big deal for OSU fans because it makes their stupendous "lead" in self-reported minor violations "disappear" for awhile.
Most of all, it's a big deal to WVU, their admins, and fans, becuase they can use it to "justify" their hatred and "psycho-ex" behavior toward RR and turn "mea culpa" into "see, we knew RR was 'dirty' all along." Eventually, they will have themselves convinced that RR leaving was good for their program.
I still haven't figured out what the NCAA "gains" by all of this piling on. It was they who changed their own interpretation of their own rules and decided to hold coaches "responsible" for resulting "violations" in the first place. All they really needed here was a clarification to take effect starting last year.
They have already caused a coach whose "violations" are exactly what everyone else was doing a lot of suffering that he doesn't deserve. They have already caused Michigan players, coaches, admins, and fans a lot of suffering that they don't deserve. If they really want to look "tough," all they have to do is void Lane Kiffin's contract with USC on the grounds that it was his dishonesty that helped provide the environment of non-compilaince at USC. It would be a lot more high-profile than what they are doing now.
I want the season to get here ASAP, so the focus can be on football and winning, and we can forget about this crap. If RR and Michigan win, the media will start "forgetting" about it, too. But it will only happen when the wins are enough to provide more clicks and views to the MSM. Until then, we are probably stuck with it.
I think the issue more pertains to the future restrictions placed on Coach Rod himself. Here's an excerpt from Rothstein at AA.com.
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What might change is Michigan’s approach to next week’s NCAA meeting, at least according to Michael Buckner, a Florida attorney who frequently represents universities in NCAA cases.
“For the Michigan hearing, the West Virginia Notice of Allegations will not have a direct impact on the actual proceedings of the hearing because they are separate and distinct cases,” Buckner said. “However, it’s going to be the silent entity in the hearing room. Everyone’s going to know about it but no one’s going to talk about it.
“And if I was Michigan and if I was coach Rodriguez, the West Virginia case would impact my hearing strategy.”
The reasoning behind this, Buckner said, is because the NCAA can place a “show cause” order on Rodriguez out of the Michigan hearings, which the school would then have to monitor.
And when West Virginia goes in front of the committee, if Rodriguez is found guilty there, the punishment on Rodriguez could escalate in the number of years the order is in place, the number of days he can be on the field coaching or the number of days Rodriguez can recruit off-campus. Plus, he can be found as a repeat violator during the West Virginia hearings if he has a show-cause order attached during the Michigan hearings, Buckner said.
So this makes it sound like he could be potentially limited in his time on the field at Michigan and when recruiting. Seems utterly ridiculous that our program suffers twice. I think a personal fine would be more appropriate in the WVU case. Either way, while I do agree that this is just more off-season space-filler, it is mildly concerning because anytime you lose your coach on the field it's never a great situation. In the end I'm faithful that a winning season will at the very least shut the media up.
I mean the point was that he didn't know that certain activities were not counted as part of practice time. He didn't know at WVU and didn't know at Michigan (or in other words, both Universities didn't really care what he did, or knew and didn't stop him).
It's just how he operated.
My question is how is WVU impacted? Their current coach was on RR's staff and their compliance department sure didn't come with RR.
Rich Rod is the man. I think it was an honest mistake. If you listen to his interviews and read what recruits and players are saying about him, he seems like a honest and great Michigan Man. As long as recruits and our players and most people within the program think it, I'm perfectly happy with him being the head coach of Michigan.
Like every other coach in the country, RR likes to be around football, he likes to be around his players getting better, and he likes to coach. Like every other coach in the country, RR knew and knows that there are rules in place as to coaching involvement by himself and staff just like a driver knows there is a speed limit on the express way. Like every other coach in the country, RR figured that pretty much everybody does 75 in a 70 and the policeman on the side of the road doesn't give a shit. So, like every other coach in the country, he paid attention to his "speed" to the extent that he knew he could not go 85, but he looked at the road most of the time instead of having his eyes constantly focused on the spedometer and set the cruise at 75 as he had come to believe it was a safe and implicitly compliant speed.
The Freep Press article reported RR's practices like they were the brutal torture of defenseless baby animals and forced the NCAA's hand into invesstigating the situation and finding what they already knew they would find, and invetiably lead to an investigation of WVU, where again, the NCAA found out that RR had been going 75 in a 70 for a long time. As such, Michigan and WVU are going to both get traffic tickets, and both are going to have to pay a little closer attention to their spedometers for a couple of years, and will result in hightened compliance from the rest of the country because they don't want a ticket.
For those that see what the want to see and hear what they want to hear, this argument DOES NOT attempt to excuse the conduct, he should have been doing the speed limit, but you should have too on the way into work this morning. There are rules and then there are RULES. You should not break either, but a rule is not a RULE, and breaking a rule while still adhering to the spirit of the rule is not the same as taking a shit on RULE because you want to win games, period. By comparison, USC drank a fifth of vodka, stole car, drove the wrong way down the express way and T-Boned a family of four. For the RR haters, all the RR supporters are asking for is a little perspective, that is all, just a little. Nobody is excusing the conduct, but a little perspective is necessary to form a balanced opinion of this man and his practices.
This changes nothing, RR has to win this year. 8-4 and this shit dies a natural death. 4-8 and he will be fired, not for the speeding ticket, but for simply not winning.
That's a good analogy. When this all came down you didn't hear of many coaches that were appalled at what was going on because they are doing the same thing. The compliance department now has to become like my wife. "slow down your going over the speed limit. If you get another ticket your in deep Sh#%."
On the surface, it's hard not to recognize a pattern here. But the fact that it continued on 2 years POST Rodriquez strengthens the argument that the rules are vague/ambiguous. If the rules against using this personnel are so crystal clear, why did WVa's coaches and adminstration continue to do it after Coach Rod left campus?
This is the only reply anyone here needs to read.