May 8th, 2010 at 9:07 PM ^

I will reiterate - until we know what RR actually said (and not some Bengal position coach making veiled allusions to something improper but not actually, you know, saying what he heard), this is just more gristle for the anti-RR crowd.  And to be fair, if the scouts asked RR "Do you think Morgan Trent bought into your system" or "Why do you think his play slumped during his last year", saying "I think he didn't really but into what we were doing" is a pretty fair answer.  My sense with RR is that he probably told the scouts that Trent is a good kid but he didn't really feel like he was invested in the program's regime change (which shouldn't surprise anyone), and the various players in this drama extrapolated for dramatic effect. 


May 8th, 2010 at 11:19 PM ^

For some reason, I kind of doubt anyone would run this front-page if it was just about Carr.  But yes, I do agree that Carr's follow-up talks to Trent divulging some second-hand accounts isn't going to engender people to him.  I still think Carr is a good coach and a great recruiter, but I still do not feel that he was a deity some people made him out to be.

Section 1

May 9th, 2010 at 3:37 PM ^

But Carr should answer the operative question: 

Coach Carr, did you really tell Morgan Trent that he had been 'bad-mouthed' to NFL scouts by Rich Rodriguez?

I understand that Lloyd Carr has a complicated relationship with the press, and especially the Free Press.  Carr seems, or appeared in the past, to be unusually friendly with people like Michael Rosenberg.  Which now seems exceedingly odd, given the Rosenberg's and the Free Press' despicable treatment of Rich Rodrigeuz.  At the same time, Carr was as notorious as his mentor Bo Schembechler for giving the press as little information, and as little access to his players, as anyone in team sports, professional or collegiate.  Which makes it extremely odd as to why Rich Rodriguez, who has given the press more access to Michigan football than Bo or any of his successors, would be made such an unfair hate-object by the Free Press.

In any event, it falls to Lloyd Carr now to step up and deny any false stories or false accusations about Michigan's Head Football Coach.  Carr isn't the head coach anymore.  Carr is a Senior Associate Athletic Director, reporting to David Brandon.  It's time for Carr to get All In for Rich Rodriguez, or get out of Ann Arbor.  If any "Senior Associate Athletic Director" in the Michigan Athletic Department in the Bo era had been rumored, perhaps falsely, to have undermined Bo, I'd expect that he'd be gone.

I say none of this as a hater of Lloyd Carr.  It may be a very simple matter for Carr to simply deny the strory as wholly untrue.  But that is what he has to do.  Carr doesn't get a choice.  Our football program doesn't exist to make Lloyd Carr's semi-retirement pleasant.  I don't want Carr "purged"; I want his statement that the story is untrue.

Bando Calrissian

May 9th, 2010 at 5:19 PM ^

So now we get more of the "Why won't Coach Carr speak up?" arguments where people assume he's automatically in the wrong because he doesn't issue a public statement each time his name comes up in the discussion.

And when or if he does issue a statement, it's still not going to be enough for a lot of folks.  They're still going to have their opinion about him, it's not going to change, and he's still going to be thrown under the bus for this, that, or the other thing.  Same as when he was still the head coach.  Handful of Big 10 championship rings and Rose Bowl appearances or not, there's still no convincing some people that he was a great coach after Tom Brady.

No matter how much he won, Lloyd Carr just couldn't win.

pee on freep

May 9th, 2010 at 5:40 PM ^

reading thru your post - the parallels with RR are.... disturbing.  it is truly amazing what losses do to players, coaches, the team and the community.  everyone is looking to blame someone else, then passionate (and often biased) people get defensive... and around and around we go...

we all look forward to days of victories when we do not have to get defensive.  in the meantime we should just cool our heads and cool our tongues.  we should all stand behind our current team and do everything we can to let them know they have our support.  

in-fighting is second only to in-breeding.  Thank you LLoyd, Go RR, Go Blue!

(edit:)  That being said, I do not think anyone should come out and defend anything.  I think LLoyd should keep quiet, I think Trent should be quiet, I think RR should keep quiet.  None of it helps us on the field come September, it only hurts and distracts.  Everyone should ignore and move on, these pansy-ass reporters and journalists should not be rewarded with the attention...


May 9th, 2010 at 5:58 PM ^

This isn't one of those, "He should show that he supports the new coach 100% in the interest of the program!" moments, in which case I could definitely see your point.  The fact is that this article, or more specifically, Morgan Trent is claiming that Lloyd Carr told him that Rich Rodriguez badmouthed him to NFL scouts and GM's.  Rich Rodriguez has publicly denied he ever did any such thing.  In this case I think it is important to hear from Carr what exactly he said to Trent and where he heard any rumors that he passed along (since presumably he didn't directly overhear Rodriguez criticizing Trent even if it did occur).  This is especially true since Carr is still employed as a representative of the Michigan athletic department.

As for the "woe is me" sentiment regarding Carr, he never won a major bowl game after Brady left and he went 1-6 against Jim Tressel.  That definitely doesn't constitute a "great" performance from a Michigan football coach in my book.

Section 1

May 9th, 2010 at 6:22 PM ^

But Lloyd Carr, as an individual, is not more important than our football program.  And reporting like this is hurting our football program.

If Rich Rodriguez is a bald-faced liar about all of this, I'd like to know; but of course Carr can't help us with that.  What Carr can do, is to interrupt his semi-retirement for about ten minutes, and do an interview in which he answers the question, directly.  I do want to know if Carr said what Morgan Trent claims.  Damned right I want to know.  Carr is our Senior Associate Athletic Director.  If Lloyd Carr can't take the time to do an interview, he can damn well issue a statement through Bruce Madej and the Athletic Department.

What is the point, and what is the benefit to the Athletic Department and the football program, in Carr remaining silent?  Because the detriment, the cost, and the erosion of trust and confidence as a result of Carr's silence, is pretty damned obvious. 

pee on freep

May 9th, 2010 at 6:29 PM ^

my original comment was coming from "since this is such a wishy-washy lack-of-substance editorial from a wanna-be writer" that we should not even entertain it with any comments.  get back to the ways of Bo and LLoyd of keeping it in the family.  move on, as giving these finger-bangers attention only perpetuates the situation.

Section 1, I read your emotion and passion into it, and perhaps because this is now beyond a former player negbanging our RR, that it is actually now past that and an issue between LLoyd and RR, that LLoyd should say something.

But, this is exactly what the Factions want.  It started with Practice-gate, and has continued to where they are putting a wedge between our previous and current coach.  Those Factions are sitting back with their smirk and loving putting the current football team on edge, in any way they can want, and by constantly having to jump when they say "jump", I think we only allow it to continue... and invite the next round of it.  Another hear-say issue is all this is.  It would be nice to hear LLoyd come out and deny all of it, but would this situation not continue to elevate to more headline news?  right now it is low-key and stupid hear-say, let's keep it that way and move on.


May 9th, 2010 at 8:45 PM ^

I never said that Carr owed a public apology to anyone - he's free to say what he wants.  I don't think that he is tattling on RR, but I do question what he expected to accomplish by telling Trent what a scout told him RR said.  Trent clearly didn't like RR while he was at UM, and simply passing along hearsay will only exasperate these feelings.

I think Carr was a good coach and a great recruiter, and I've always felt that.  You point to a handful of Big 10 championships and some Rose Bowls, but what about the losing streak to OSU, the consistent waxing in bowl games toward the end, and the fact that despite having consistently great talent, his teams seemingly underperformed almost every year.  When Carr arrived, UM and OSU were effectively equal, owning the conference and constantly competing for NC bids.  Carr took the lead early on as Cooper imploded and OSU struggled for leadership.  But since Tressel arrived, Carr allowed the program to remain "good but not great", while OSU employed a singular plan than made them one of the elite programs during the decade.  Outside of 2006, those last 5-6 years were marked by great expectations that were never met, a team that could win 9-10 games but never felt like it could run with the elite teams nationally. 

Carr was a great steward for the University and ran a relatively clean program, but he was not an innovator.  He didn't read the tea leaves of how college football was maturing and changing, how talent was taking a back seat to innovative teams with non-traditional offensive and defensive systems.  With the talent that UM brought in by virtue of its stature, winning 8-9 games with a conventional offense was something to be expected (and starting this year, RR is also held to a similar standard), and rarely did he seem to "out coach" teams with similar or better talent.  UM just had more talent than all but 1-2 teams in the Big 10 year in and year out, so competing/winning the Big 10 title just doesn't impress me that much.

I will always respect what he did with UM, but I was never enamored with his coaching style or his desire to keep holy the Bo system.  Even if RR doesn't work out at UM, I will always be happy that UM took a chance in changing the culture at this program.


May 10th, 2010 at 10:17 AM ^

We don't know what if anything was said by Lloyd Carr or Rich Rodriguez ....

but what if Rich was asked about Morgan Trent's work ethic, and whether he is a team player, and Rich gave an honest answer (good talent, caught in the transition, may not have fully bought into the new system), or even a positive, but less than glowing answer (ether which was interpreted negatively by the scout)

and what if Lloyd told Morgan Trent that the scouts were questioning his work ethic, etc.

Morgan Trent could have interpreted the comments as Rich having "bad mouthed" him.

Lloyd could have been straight up: when asked, Rich gave an honest assessment that you weren't fully behind the new coaching staff, so I am advising you to get your act together and talk about how you will be a team player when you interview with teams

Whatever ... wasn't Trent was one of the guys who was torched repeatedly by USC, App State, and Oregon?

Sure I'd like to have players with that experience now ... but I still seems like there were at least a few who viewed thier time at Michigan as a priviledged stopover on the way to the NFL


May 10th, 2010 at 2:06 AM ^

who's side are you on?  "if/when LC ever  issues a statement" . thats the one thing that could take care of the whole mess. just have the most "Saintly" of all fucking college coaches ever" just issue a statement that he backs RR and the Mi. football team and a lot of this stuff will go away. to sit quietly at home and letting your name get used as a way to sabatage your schools program and team? and not say anything? thats just shit LC!

Section 1

May 10th, 2010 at 11:49 AM ^

Lloyd Carr is a Senior Associate Athletic Director at the University of Michigan.  He reports directly to Athletic Director David Brandon.  If there has to be some kind of choice between our current Head Football Coach, and former sudent-athlete, it seems obvious to me that you do not sacrifice the Head Coach to an untruth, in order to somehow protect someone with no current affiliation with the Athletic Department.

There may indeed be another explanation.  We are dealing with such a long string of who-said-what-to-whom, that there might just be another explanation that solves all of this without anyone being called a liar. 

Remember that the central link in this story is someone who has not been identified at all; the unnamed NFL scout or scouts who claim that Rich Rodriguez bad-mouthed Morgan Trent.  We not only don't know what exactly might have been said by them or to them; we don't even know who these alleged people are!  And they are the essential links in this entire story! 

It is a story of such dubious innuendo, that it should be scrutinized heavily.  But it really does fall to Lloyd Carr to answer the simple question(s), directly, insofar as he is a member of our Athletic Department.  If Carr can't do that, I question why he still holds a position as Senior Associate Athletic Director at all.


May 9th, 2010 at 8:31 PM ^

I buy that to an extent, but Trent was being burned by WRs from Oregon, USC, Wisconsin, etc. while playing under Carr.  The entire Rose Bowl was a string of USC WRs and RBs running past him, and while he has been decent in the pros, I still think it is safe to say that his poor senior year probably was due at least as much to his own deficiencies as the coaching change.  But yes, I will agree that the coaching switch didn't help.  Conversely, not buying into the new direction and "dogging" it, which is what people presume happened with Trent, might have affected not only his stock but also the aforementioned position coach's tumultous season.


May 8th, 2010 at 9:07 PM ^

I almost wish he had just said, "I did tell scouts you had poor work ethic, because you did. I did tell them you didn't buy in, because you didn't. I'm not going to lie for you when you don't give me the decency of 100% effort. I told the truth when asked a question, that is all. You bear the fruits of your labor, Morgan."


May 8th, 2010 at 9:07 PM ^

No matter what was said between Rich Rod and Trent/NFL Scouts, it's still nice to hear that he is regarded as a good person and player, and for that I am proud that he was/is a Michigan Man.

Dark Blue

May 8th, 2010 at 9:09 PM ^

Who cares? The Haters still going to be hating, and the rest of us are just here for the Voracity(the unverified version).

Let the Haters(Yes Morgan Trent I AM TALKING TO YOU) have their moment, after RR wins some games this year and a NC next year I will not forget your intolerance.

Section 1

May 9th, 2010 at 3:48 PM ^

it will smiply follow the odd and inexplicable pattern of stupid statements and retractions by the likes of Braylon Edwards, Mario Manningham, Toney Clemons and too many others to list.

After so many cases of guys talking some really stupid shit, one might think that people would review their comments with a bit more scrutiny.

A-reporter-says-that-Morgan Trent-said-that-Lloyd Carr-said-that-an-NFL-scout-said-that-Rich Rodriguez-said-something.  Doesn't that start out as a kind of meter-pegging reading on your bullshitometer? 


May 9th, 2010 at 11:05 AM ^

This is a stupid comment.

Things that happen on the field aren't 100% of the story.  Pro coaches don't necessarily have access to practice habits, locker room behavior, etc. without asking college coaches.  This has nothing to do with pro coaches being bad at their jobs and everything to do with pro coaches/scouts needing to do full background checks on their potential millionnaire employees.


May 8th, 2010 at 9:31 PM ^

Is that Carr telling Trent that RR was trashing him seems a bit passive aggressive for Lloyd.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't remember him nibbling around the edges like that.  Carr either said no comment or told you what he thought.  This story just doesn't seem like his style.

Space Coyote

May 8th, 2010 at 10:23 PM ^

I think maybe Rich said something that was maybe along the lines of "I'm not sure he completely bought into our new system." 


Side:  To be fair to Trent, it was a major change to play for a coach he never expected to play for.  If he was at a different point he may have transfered, which if he did with grace, I would be perfectly fine with.  Sometimes cultures, personalities, and philosophies don't mix.  I think RR and Trent and the rest of the seniors were put in very difficult situations for all of them in this regard.


Back to my point, I think Lloyd may have heard what was misconstrued from RR, who said exactly what he thought, probably something like "I think you had the talent to be a third round pick,..." and maybe said something about maybe thinking RR said that Trent didn't buy in.  Lloyd's comments probably got taken even further our of context and this is what happens.  A lot of people hear bits and pieces of conversations and rumblings and rumors and come to their own conclusions.  Unfortanetly for everyone involved it got to the wrong ears and it portrays RR poorly, Lloyd poorly, and Trent poorly to many hardcore fans here.  I think it's a lot of misunderstandings as to actual context of the convos


May 8th, 2010 at 9:54 PM ^

The freep tried everything possible to increase their online readership, the RR jihad and all only warranted a 3% annual growth.  It's like they have thrown every pitcher and pitch they had and nothing has changed, at least from a number of readers standpoint.  

Edward Khil

May 9th, 2010 at 5:41 PM ^

I know you were referring to online readership.  But the Freep's print edition circulation went from 329,989 in 2007 (pre-jihad) to 308,944 in '08 and to 298,243 in '09.  The Sunday edition went from 640,356 in '07 to 606,374 in '08 and to 605,389 in '09.  So they lost more than 5% of their Sunday readership, and nearly 10% of their daily readership from '07 to '09.

I was hoping for more of a plunge.  The Detroit News went from 202,029 in 2007 to 178,280 in '09 (down nearly 12%).  Maybe they don't have enough anti-RR articles.


May 8th, 2010 at 10:40 PM ^

Rodriguez's comments may have caused Trent to slip from the first round...The nice thing about that statement is that it can't be proved or disproved...I think people would have been pretty surprised had Trent gone in the third round.  



Edit: This was intended to be under the post by EverybodyMurders. 


May 9th, 2010 at 9:22 PM ^


Story at Bengal dot com  MT's posistion coach explains why the Bengals  drafted MT in the sixth round. sixth round.Which contradicts what the author asserts that it was RR's word that doomed MT to the sixth round.They had to fill needs at other posistions first and just so happens MT was still there at the sith round. They would have liked to drafted him at the third round but other posistions were a bigger priority

 In RR's first year I went to the coaches camp, guess who the coach used as the prototype for the drills? yeah, it was MT, during open practices that we were allowed to watch.  I nor you or anybody else would use a lazy player to demonstrate drills at a coaching camp. 

The only two players that didn't get yelled at for screw-ups were guess who, MT and DW.  I really don't believe any of the crap that came out of this so called book. I believe RR when he says he did not bad mouth MT.  Thank God Carr has not said anything that would be just  like him not to dignify that trash book with a comment, 

That leaves MT who is by all accounts a standup guy If there were a serious rift between MT and RR it's probably news to MT and RR,  " to quote MT "I found that jarring"
as in he was surprised that a coach would say those things about him.