Return to Recruiting Dominance
Last year, Michigan went 4-4 in head to head recruiting battles against Michigan State. This year, Hoke and his staff are off to an 8-0 start!
Against Ohio State last year, Michigan went 0-12(!) head to head on the recruiting trail. Currently, Michigan is 1-2 (1 of Ohio St. commits being Brionte Dunn, who has legitimate interest in Michigan).
Compared to last year's results, Michigan recruiting has taken a complete 180. Rather than beating the Illinois and Pittsburghs of the world, Michigan is going head to head with Alabama, Oklahoma, and Ohio State for recruits. Let's hope that Hoke and Co. can keep it up!
Rodriguez was never "prohibited" from hiring Casteel. It was Rodriguez's intent all along to hire Casteel. He said so when he arrived in Ann Arbor. It wasn't until January of 2008, several weeks into the Rodriguez hire, after Calvin Magee and the offensive guys were already moving, that Bruce Tall and Jeff Casteel decided. Tall decided to come to Ann Arbor.
Casteel decided to stay in Morgantown. And he felt the need to issue a press release, to explain his decision. Casteel said all the right things; he had been given the chance to stay and to run his defense with his players under Bill Stewart. He and his family were happy in Morgantown. He was a well-paid DC by the standards of the Big East.
But, ya know, you could say all the same things about Rich Rodriguez. Happy, secure, well paid by Big East standards. In Morgantown. What Michigan did was to offer him about double the money, secured, on a far bigger stage. It was Michigan. It was financial security. It was the big time.
In 2009, Jeff Casteel was making about $370k at West Virginia, and Greg Robinson was making about $270k at Michigan. God only knows what Greg Mattison was making with the Ravens. Maybe $1m.
I say Michigan failed to make the right offer to Jeff Casteel, in 2007 (pre-Shafer), in 2009 (post-Shafer), and again in early January of 2011 (Post-bowl review meetings). Although I am led to believe that David Brandon discussed with Rich Rodriguez the need to offer more money for Coordinators, and they both agreed on the need. But that by that time, Casteel would not join the Rodrigeuz staff in Ann Arbor for any price, unless it was clear that Rodriguez would be secured through the end of his contract. If you think I am wrong, and if you know better, I'd love to hear about it. I'm a good listener. If you simply don't want to believe me or agree with my supposition, you are welcome to do that, too. I won't be critical. I'm just offering my view.
But here is Dave Brandon, writing in "Brandon's Blog" on the subject:
'SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT' is an item I will be including in my blog when there is an item that I hear is being discussed on the Internet or another media platform that needs some -- we'll call it clarification.
The first item is appropriate to bring up in this blog. Despite my remarks from day one that our compensation packages for football coaches at Michigan were not always as competitive as they could be, and there's a market out there and we need to pay for value and the marketplace dictates what those price tags are, I still hear there are some self-proclaimed experts who maintained we were not going to be competitive when it came to hiring our football coaching staff. Fact: we went after Greg Mattison and we convinced him to leave a highly successful NFL football franchise. An important part of making it happen involved us being prepared to pay for the talent and experience we needed. Fact: I understand the dynamics of the marketplace and we have and will pay for top talent to keep our programs successful.
Again, if you want to disagree with me, that's fine. I won't argue. If it is a book reference that you require, I would suggest that we mark a date to discuss it again, after the publication of Bacon's book.
btw, I exchanged email with the always-friendly Angelique Chengelis, who referred to Bacon as an "embed." I think she has very good reason to use that sort of shorthand. It is obviously not used in a wholly flattering sense -- journalists don't want to be "embedded" if they don't have to be. But of course there are "embeds." They get special access, which is good, and they get special attention on whether they can remain fair to their subjects despite getting privileged access and protection. Bacon, it is clear, has gotten special, unique, privileged access. People may doubt him; but he will, assuredly, have some major news to report.
Money was not the reason why Casteel decided to stay put in Morgantown in '07 and again after the '08 season. He had no desire to leave WVU except for a head coaching job. Money was also not the overriding factor as to why Coach Rod ended up settling for Greg Robinson, either. Allowing his position coaches (and best friends) to undermine a young, up and coming defensive coordinator by the name of Scott Schafer did not go over well at all in coaching circles. Bottom line, no defensive coordinator wanted to come work in an environment where they didn't have control of the scheme and authority over the assistants, who answered directly to the head coach.
You still offer nothing to prove the conspiracy.
Do you really think that Michigan refused to pay an additional $100K to get RR's man? Of course not. Casteel said he wanted to be in WV. He might also have wanted to be a head coach. He might also have decided that he didn't want to work under Rich. There are tons of options that appear as plausible (or more so) than the notion that RR was not allowed to hire his top choice for DC.
You're actually being far more specific, without being any more definite, than I am.
I don't know exactly how the negotiations went. I haven't suggested that it was $100k that separated the parties. I haven't even discounted the fact that Jeff Casteel was being transparently candid, when he said that he and his family decided together to remain in Morgantown on Bill Stewart's staff. But I might also suggest that doubling Jeff's salary, with a fat guarantee provision (all of which would be less than what we are now paying Mattison in the Brandon Era) would also have been a very good thing, for Mrs. Casteel and the girls.
Now as for the history between you and me, sport; it wasn't so long ago -- just the beginning of this month -- that I had advanced the theory that the "Liar Liar" billboard, which had been put up by "Michigan fans," according to 1001 news sites on the 'web, was actually the work of the guys in the CBS Outdoor Sales Office. And you, in the thread that I started, wondered:
I heard that the billboard was paid for by someone from The Grassy Knoll.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/story-liar-liar-billboards?page=1
So how did that one work out for the two of us?
Do tell me what C-c-c-captain Insano says, cause this might be the weirdest post I've read here.
The "Liar Liar" billboard? I realize that you were tremendously bothered by the origin of the board, but I (and the rest of the world) couldn't care less. My only point about that matter was that it was sad to see how bothered some people could get by a nonissue. "How did that one work out for the two of us"? Well, it seems it clarified that one of needs help...and his name rhymes with "Ection Un".
With regard to Casteel (which is your original sidetrack on this hijacked thread)...If you "don't know how the negotiation went" then maybe you shouldn't be making things up about RR being prevented from hiring the guy.
You should really think about asking Tater to write for his tinfoilconspiracywhackjob.nutjob.blogspot.com site.
Yeah, exactly how again? Because Casteel didn't want to uproot his family? No one has any idea if it involves money, it's just some presumption based on Brandon's throwaway words at a presser.
And the idea that Bill Martin (a sacred subject to some still anyway) hampered assistant coach selection still wouldn't jive with hiring the program disaster that is Greg Robinson.
He hampered it by not giving RR the budget he needed to pay a top DC. Gurgh was a compromise that left no one happy.
Well even if we had a relatively cheap budget for coordinators (and I say relatively, because it's not like we were the 119th lowest paying school; these guys still got good money to coach football), it doesn't mean hiring Greg was purely because of money. You could have gotten a young, up and coming DC from a mid-level school, an assistant from your Alabamas, USCs, etc. Greg was an all-around disaster. The budget doesn't excuse his hiring.
Scheme, being required to work with RR's assistants, the roster, the 2008 record, and the radical shift from the 'old' Michigan philosophy might have discouraged those young up-and-comers from risking their reputations on a project that was already off to a bad start.
...After Michigan paid RR's salary and all that money to settle with WVU, we only had eight dollars left for a DC.
IMHO more evidence exists of RR undermining his DC's at M than budgetary constraints prohibiting RR getting a top flight DC. The 3-3-5 stuff gives me a headache
He hampered it by not giving RR the budget he needed to pay a top DC.Except that this most likely never happened. Under Martin's watch, we paid our football staff (from RR on down) more money than ever before, spent over $1 million to renovate the weight room, spent in the neighborhood of $10 million to build a new indoor practice facility, and spent $226 million to renovate Michigan Stadium. The idea that Martin would OK all that and then say, "No, I won't spend another $150K on a coordinator" is more than a little far-fetched.
C'mon now. This is nonsense. If you can't provide a quote of your "well documented" accusation, then drop it.
He's been given multiple opportunities to support his assertion, and yet he's provided no evidence. I think we can only assume that Section 1's statement about Casteel-to-Michigan is pure guesswork on his part.
It's ironic that he rails against the Free Press for their journalistic integrity, but fails to have facts to back up his own assertions...
Yup. Maybe this board needs a Section2 whose posts will focus primarily on the wrongs and blogging shortcomings of Section1.
"Well documented" was not my phrase. I didn't use those words.
I've said what I think. I've told you why I think that way. I'm not paid to hunt down witnesses, sources, et cetera. I haven't misquoted anybody. I've done little more than say, It appears to me, that Rich Rodriguez clearly wanted Jeff Casteel, as the Number 1 Option (and probably the Number 2 and 3 Options) for DC at Michigan. We know what Casteel was making at WVU; we know what Schafer, Robinson and Magee and all made while at Michigan. We know that David Brandon has publicly acknowledged a problem with Michigan assistant coaching salaries, in attracting top-notch coordinators. At the end of all of that, what I say is that this is a story that I'd like to see reported in considerably more detail.
And what is particularly funny to me, as it so often is in similar situations, is that I'd wager that this blog's host and proprietor is much more aligned with my view on this, than with any of you. I don't suppose that that proves anything to anybody, or that it will win me any arguments. All that I'd suggest is that if I am some sort of strange outlier, then what is Brian Cook?
Perhaps you haven't been around for the past few months, which is when many (perhaps the majority) of posters on this site have rebuked Brian Cook for being, in your words, a "strange outlier."
So congratulations on being in line with Brian Cook. As you said, I don't think it's going to win you any arguments.
(Full disclosure: I have no idea why Casteel didn't come to Michigan. You very well might be correct. But without evidence, I think it needs to be made clear that your theory - and that of others - is 100% conjecture.)
I suppose the 'well documented' line was too much hyperbole. I cannot offer concrete proof of this version of events, but to me, it is the most convincing.
As for the 'outlier' bit, Brian was forced to recant his posting of "We are ND" in response to the hiring of Brady Hoke, so there's that.
It's not just that it isn't "well-documented." It isn't documented at all. No one outside this message board has ever suggested that money was the sticking point with Casteel. It's pure conjecture.
Why do you find Section 1's conspiracy theories more plausible than the notion that Casteel did not want to uproot his family for a lateral career move?
I would answer that being DC at Michigan is considerably more prestigious then being DC at WVU, as well as being in a considerably better college town with far superior schools and opportunities for one's children. But maybe Casteel's family considerations trumped all in the end and he chose to remain at WVU. I find it hard to believe that the AD would not have pulled out all the stops to bring RR's DC along with him when he hired, and especially after 3-9. Of course, RR "upgraded" from Scott Shafer to Gurgh after 2008, so the hiring decisions made during the RR era are already in question.
I believe there was some discourse on this issue on a WVU board a few months back, which sparked subsequent discussion on this board.
I find it hard to believe that the AD would not have pulled out all the stops to bring RR's DC along with him when he hired, and especially after 3-9.If you find it hard to believe, why do you believe it? There is zero evidence that Bill Martin did anything but support RR to the fullest.
For whatever reason, RR's star DC did not come with him from WVU to Michigan. That is on the AD, because the AD has ultimate control over personnel decisions. Whatever Process was used to find Michigan's DC in 2008 and 2009 did not work out, to the detriment of the program.
The AD does not hire football assistants. Any responsibility he has there is purely of a rubber-stamp nature. It's the head coach's job to put the staff together. And it's simply crazy to believe that Bill Martin wouldn't have given RR all the support in the world. RR was his guy. Martin's legacy as an AD was on the line (and, since it didn't work out, in the eyes of many fans, Martin won't be viewed as a good AD). If Martin were still our AD, RR probably would still be here.
I don't know why you keep searching for some grand explanation here. It is normal for a head coach to not land every assistant he wants, especially when some of them are established at their jobs, as Casteel is. Casteel has reached a level of prominence at which he can expect a HC offer. He doesn't need to further make his name as an assistant.
RR's problem was not so much that he missed out on Casteel - which was understandable - but that he couldn't make it work with a different DC. He kept trying to turn his other DCs into Casteel.
It's documented that RR wanted Casteel. It is not documented that the reason Casteel turned us down twice (if not even three times) was money. That's just the hypothesis of some of our resident conspiracy theorists.
I don't think it's to fair to say I flamebait or troll. I meant my comment about His Dudeness to be taken in a spirit of good fun.
Concerning Rodriguez: Yes, alas, I am repetitive. But in this endless theoretical debate on the merits/demerits of RR, I don't think I'm alone here. It's the nature of this discourse that everyone begins repeating themselves.
Anyhow, I'm not the one who brought up Rodriguez. Most often, I feel compelled to respond to someone who is being crushingly repetitive about the subject.
Your spirit of good fun can go fuck itself just to be clear.
Man, I wish I was better than this, but yeah, as I said I'm enjoying your suffering. :)
I can't be the only one who knew he was going to come in here to whine some more, I just didn't realize Section 1 was going to come along for the ride as well.
Part of recruiting is finding good players. You say that Rodriguez did just fine in recruiting, but none of his recruits have been picked in the NFL Draft (although I realize all of his draft-eligible recruits were either juniors or redshirt sophomores and would have had to leave a year early). A bunch of them never made it to campus. They only won 15 games in three years. And not many of them look like top NFL picks in the near future (Lewan and Omameh look pretty good, but the jury's out on the rest).
Getting the #10 recruiting class in the country only matters if those players turn into good college athletes, and so far the results are mixed. Michigan has to go 10-3 this year just for that 2008 class to get to a .500 record in their careers.
I'll be the first to admit that Hoke hasn't proven anything yet because wins and losses are the ones that matter, but it's somewhat silly to sit here and argue that Rodriguez did a good job as a recruiter. He got highly rated players who turned into mediocre college players. Whoopee. Great job, coach.
seems we were in it for a lot of 5* by making their final 5, but never REALLy were serious contenders for any of them outside of Frost. I think Dee Hart would have left to Alabam even if RR had stayed
Yeah, that's another point I forgot to make. Section 1 said we did a good job recruiting against Alabama, but they took Ha'sean Clinton-Dix (whom we went after hard) and they convinced Demetrius Hart to decommit from Michigan even before Rodriguez was fired.
I'm not sure how that goes in the win column for Rodriguez, unless you also think that the Houston Oilers beat the Buffalo Bills just because they were up 35-3 in the third quarter.
as a concern in relation to Dee's commitment. Dee committed to Michigan, and decommitted when he thought that Roridguez might be on the slippery slope out of town. I think there were only about 12,459 articles in the press that week that Dee decommitted, about a coaching change at Michigan. That's not a stretch, for a family that was (by their own admission) concerned about the NCAA investigation of Michigan.
That, and the fact that Dee Hart was an early enrollee and could not wait for any Brandon "process."
Look, I can't rewrite history. What happened, happened. I am seeing a lot of complaints on this thread about how, "Rodriguez had a fair number of rated recruits who didn't pan out." Before we know how a single one of Brady Hoke's recruits pans out. We'll see. Very much unlike the people who feel the need to attack Rodriguez, I feel no need whatsoever to attack Hoke.
There are lots of Lloyd Carr successes and failures to debate. There are Rodriguez successes and failures to debate. So far, there are no Brady Hoke succeses and/or failures to debate, apart from a couple of months' worth of solid recruting in Michigan and Northern Ohio.
I agree in regards to projecting Hoke recruits too early. I'll be the first one to admit that he hasn't proven anything on the field yet.
However, Dee Hart COULD have waited for the "Process." He didn't announce his actual decision until just before Hoke was hired. He could have enrolled at U of M well after the Hoke hiring.
Hart was gone. He decommitted before Rodriguez was fired. If you're going to give Rodriguez credit for recruiting Hart (who also hasn't done a thing in college), then Lloyd Carr deserves credit for any player who ever decommitted from Michigan, too.
Just an fyi, Dee Hart spent New Year's Day in Orlando watching his future teammates crush Michigan State. There was still a fleeting chance for Coach Rod to save his job. The fact that he chose to attend Alabama's bowl game and not ours made it rather clear that he wasn't coming to Michigan.
Man, too bad D. Hart didn't choose to attend our bowl game, hah hah.
It was in his hometown to be totally fair.
technically Cincinnati would be considered southern Ohio
That Dee's mother referenced. Was it a nit, yes in the bigger scheme of other major violations. However, he has bottom line just like a CFO who signs off audited financials for SOX compliance and has to take the bottom line if one of his accountants messes up. Everyone will say he needs better controls.
That's a good one. Another one you can take up with Brian Cook.
...to post is because he's really Brian's evil second personality?
I know I haven't been on this thread since I posted, and it's turned pretty damn messy. I did'nt meen for this to be a RR vs. Hoke in recruiting thread or a thread to bash RR in any way, shape or form. I know it's kind of a redudndant topic, but I just thought it would be interesting to share our recruiting records against our two main recruiting rivals. I understand the negging on redundancy, but please don't take this thread as a "This guy hates RR!" type of thread. That was not my intention.
There were others, not you, that provoked this.
Rest assured, the last guy who wants any form of this kind of division, is Brady Hoke. And Brady probably knows, better than any of us, that attacking Rich Rodriguez is counter-productive. What I can assue most people is that attacking Rich Rodriguez is an action that will produce and equal and opposing re-action.
Against whom?