Response to the Parallax Error thread
I thought about writing this in the thread as a comment, but then I couldn't expound on it as much and it'd get buried, so here we go. For those who haven't looked at it yet, at the rate we're going it might not be on the first page much longer, so here's what I'm referring to: http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/resolving-parallax-error
So... I'm not smart enough to know what the hell the Parallax Error is. I am smart enough to know that this:
"It really depends on where exactly you define the plane of the first down to be. Is it the edge of the 15-yard line as I drew it? Is it on the opposite edge? Is it right down the middle?"
Needs to be resolved with this:
"TLDR - From what I can estimate the tip of the ball crossed the plane of the first down (as I define it) by about two inches."
Which is in light of this, from page FR14 of the official NCAA rule book (which can be downloaded here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4430-2016-and-2017-ncaa-football-rule… ):
"All field-dimension lines shown must be white and 4 inches in width (Exceptions: Sidelines and end lines may exceed 4 inches in width, goal lines may be 4 or 8 inches in width, and Rule 1-2-1-g)."
I thought santy's post was excellent in every way except one: the margin of error here is the difference between winning and losing The Game. This whole damn thing comes down to whether or not the first down marker starts at the beginning of the 15-yard line, is at the middle of the line, or is at the end of the line. When that line is four inches long, and we think the ball crossed by the start of the line (where santy defined the first down marker to be) by two inches, then that creates a dilemma.
If the first down marker is at the beginning of the four inch white line on the field, according to santy's post, which I believe is the most accurate view I've seen to date, Ohio State got that first down whether any of us like it or not (which, between all of the bad calls that led up to that, and the officiating crew that was involved, and blah blah blah, I'm pissed; as are most of us).
However, if the first down marker is at the middle or the end of that four inch 15-yard line on the field, Michigan won this game on that 4th down play and OSU was gifted another set of downs (along with everything else they were gifted on Saturday).
I attempted to answer this myself, and couldn't really come up with anything substantial to call it one way or the other. From looking at where the ball is placed on touchbacks and at the beginning of each possession in the overtimes, it seems that in some cases the tip of the ball is placed somewhere on the line so that it is past the plane of the beginning of the line on the field, while in other cases it's placed right at the beginning of the line. It is never placed at the end of the line, so that would seem to eliminate that option.
But I'll leave this up to the people who likely know far more about football than I do. It seems like this question could be answered based on where the ball starts on the 25-yard line. So where is it supposed to start? Can we get an answer to this problem?
November 28th, 2016 at 1:28 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 1:41 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 4:04 PM ^
The allegory of the trampoline.
Awesome.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:31 PM ^
People are confusing the "crossing the plane" rule of the end zone with the 10 yards for a 1st down rule.
Here, the key thing to look at is where the ball was spotted on the 25 yard line at the beginning of the Buckeye's second OT. It has to be 10 yards from that spot. It's not enough to "cross the plane" of the 15 yard line with the ball unless the ball was spotted on the far side of the 25 yard line on the first play of OSU's second OT.
The OP's last paragraph is raises the key question. The "crossing the plane" stuff I've been reading is off the mark.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:34 PM ^
was short.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:42 PM ^
This is where the ball was placed on 1st down.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:45 PM ^
This pic can be misleading. The center is allowed to move the ball a few inches when he grips it.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:48 PM ^
Yeah, you replied before I could edit. Here is where the ref placed the ball.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:46 PM ^
This is where it was when it was snapped. It was placed with the forward most tip of the ball at the 50 yard line side of the 25. Every snapper moves the ball forward when they pick it up. See my comment below for more details.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:56 PM ^
Go a few frames before that and the nose of the ball is just touching the line. Centers get some leeway when setting up to snap the ball, so using the position of the ball once he grabs it is incorrect.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:32 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 1:55 PM ^
Appropriate screenshot already in the thread.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:56 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 1:44 PM ^
I am a small college football official. As a rule, the ball for OT was placed at the 25- by rule and mechanic that means the tip of the ball was placed on the 50 yard line side of the 25 yard line. So, if the ball is placed with any part of it actually touching the 15 yard line, it is a first down. This is why there was no measurement. If you watch games, you will actually see the officials placing the ball on bigyard lines all day long for this very reason. And they always do it with the forward tip of the ball at the outer edge of the marked yard line on the field. Watch a play the ends as a fist down and that occurs on the 39.5 during a game- they will next snap the ball from the 40. Unless there is a turnover on downs (ie, the ball doesn't move), OR (as in this case) the spot is meaningul to the outcome of the game (you let it lie where you put it), you will always see them put it on a big yard line.
See Rule 5-1-2 in the rule book.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:54 PM ^
Just curious, your overall opinion of the refs.
Also, are you available the Saturday after next Thanksgiving and can you be biased in Michigan's favor?
November 28th, 2016 at 1:57 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 3:38 PM ^
I have a couple of thoughts:
- Holding is the mea culpa of officiating. It can literally be called all day on each team. I have no big problem with it being consistently not called in this game.
- I think the DPI fouls and the FM foul, etc called on us were good calls. I know I screamed out uncatchable- but for us uncatchable his defined as like 20 yards over their head. So, it sucks (especially given the inconsistency in DPI defensive holdingh).
- I think the spot was pretty solid given what I saw live, but the reality is we often do not actually see the ball- it is a feel. I am a LOS official, so I do spots all day.
- The 2 blatant no calls on DPI both went against us and really hurt us for obvious reasons. On the one in OT, I could seriously give an hour lecture on how this call was missed- i know exactly why given which officials key this receiver was- not just that it was their key but that it came after a motion had changed keys for the officials right before the snap. This was a blatant miss.
- I am not available! :) That said, I would personally tend to work very hard to overcome any perceived bias for my team- think how a parent sometimes handles their kid if they are the coach- much harder. But, I would never want to do a game for the Blue, although it would be cool to doa game in the Big House.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:16 PM ^
OSU fan here. First let me say, we were on the other side of this during the Cooper years, so I well undersand your pain.
Second, regarding DPI, OKWolverine is right about two missed DPIs by OSU that I have seen. But there was one pretty blatent miss of DPI by Michigan, on the deep ball to Brown, Stribling plainly grabs Brown's arm.
Play starts at 1:13:40 in video below. You can see DPI in the replay starting at 1:14:17.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0FZk9IuSc
November 28th, 2016 at 6:19 PM ^
Sharuck,
That restriction does not rise to the level of materiality for DPI. The hardest thing for people to understand is that grabbing a player in and of itself is only a violation of the rules- we only penalize it with a foul when the violation creates a safety issue (hence the high level of sensitivity on a fasemask or running in to the kicker call) OR is aclear advantage is gained. In this play, the WR left arm actually got up and tocuhed the ball, the receiver was using the same arm earlier in the route (you will hear people call it hand checking), and the DB was playing the ball so no way is this a foul.
This is a good example of how people screen shot a defensive lineman having his jersey ripped off and asking where is the foul....BUT, the play is happening clear on the other side of the field- no advantage gained.
If we called every violation a foul, no game would ever end because there are violations by both team every play in a game.
Thanks for the question!
November 28th, 2016 at 9:01 PM ^
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Sure looked like DPI to me. But I will readily concede that you seem to be a pretty reasonable guy and know a lot more than I do.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:40 PM ^
Are there specific guidelines for that (in the case of reaction from sidelines)? I'm presuming that JH did not verbally abuse the official and that this was about his physical reaction of tossing his stuff (though I suppose we don't know with certainty that he was not verbally abusive).
And, how does it compare to Meyer's reaction after the failed fake punt (in which he was also physically demonstrative - shouting, punching the ground)? Is it apples-to-oranges since JH's reaction resulted from a perceived officiating mistake? Whereas Meyer's reaction resulted from poor execution by OSU team/individuals? Is it possible to call the Unsportsmanlike penalty for being unsportsmanlike to a teammate (e.g., Meyer's reaction or one of Brian Kelly's epic rants at one of his own players)?
In my mind, it should be based on the behavior alone (regardless of to whom it is directed). Even celebratory reactions could be considered as such - e.g., Pat Fitzgerald's demonstrative celebration of having a personal foul penalty flag thrown (to his team's benefit). That seems blatently unsportsmanlike to me.
November 28th, 2016 at 6:11 PM ^
This is a great question. Let me be transparent here- a couple of things you need to understand (and I am describing how things "are" not how they "should be"):
1) Officials live and breath based on their grades. Everything I do, even at D3, is filmed with several views, reviewed, and graded. From my positioning, to where was I looking, to my calls accuracy, and to those plays I do not throw a flag on for accuracy. As a Line of scrimmage official, every spot I make is graded as Correct, Incorrect, or marginal. So, evaluation is everything and the outcomes for assignments and promotions are based on those quantatative grades. There is some subjectivity to it also- for example, crews work together all season so one official on a bad crew might be having a great year but his regular season schedule (which is decides 3-5 weeks in advance depending upon the league) would reflect the poor season for the crew. The individual would be rewarded at Conference championship game assignments and bowl assignments.
2) Every conference operates under officiating philosophies. For example, we all know that in the BIG the threshhold on holding to be a fould is pretty high compared to the PAC-12 where holding is called all of the time. Over the last decade, these sorts of blatant discrepancies between leagues has been fading as officiating philosophies become more centralized. Still, assignments are de-centralized and conference controlled- the leagues are competitive with each other on everything and certainly compete for the best officials. For example, to be an SEC official, an official has to live within the geographic footprint of the SEC (must live in a state with an SEC school in it) where as the Big 12 hires their officials nationally. That leads me to three:
3) Sideline behavior by coaches has been a point of emphasis nationally. Our beloved coach has had his behavior towards officials (which at times is over the top and innappropriate) used as an example of what not to tolerate. You do not see many UNS's against coahces in the BIG and my hunch is that the BIG supervisor does not want them called very often.
SO, all of that said. By national philosophy, Jim earned a UNS foul for his antics with the play sheets being thrown on to the field and the words I am sure he uttered towards said official BUT given how much the other crews in the BIG have allowed him to get away with all season (which has been significantly more unsportsmaline towards officials in my view), this one seemed pretty petty. Again, I do not know what was said.
Jim did make a comment in his post game that caught my attention- that the crew was very focused on keeping him and his coaching staff out of the white (which is the officials area only while the ball is live) more than on making big calls. This has been a HUGE area of emphasis because officials are running in to coaches and getting hurt or hurting the coaches. The downgrades we get on that are significant and can be the difference between the Alamo Bowl and the Rose Bowl, or a D3 first round game and a Semi-final game. This might seem petty- and coaches HATE it, so I was not surprised to see Jim mention it, but it is a big deal to officials but most importantly to supervisors nationwide.
The UNS standards are based almost entirely on conduct towards an official or the officiating crew as a whole or towards an opponent. Therefore, antics in celebration and in angst over a falure of your team by themselves do not rise to that level. Trust me, I have heard coaches rip kids with language that made be blanch- no foul. Hope this is helpful.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:59 PM ^
If one of the sticks is put on the very front edge of the goalline, and the chains are stretched out, the other stick should stand in the middle of the painted 10 yard hash, correct? That has to be the case, assuming that (a) the distance between the goals is 100 yards, and (b) each 10 yard division of the field is equal.
November 28th, 2016 at 2:30 PM ^
then I now understand why they didn't do a physical measurement with the sticks. Otherwise, a fraction of an inch here could not be easily verified by eye. Of course, this assumes the actual ball spot placement was correct - a debate that will go on for a long time it appears. Thank you for the insights.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:02 PM ^
Wow. Excellent first mgoblog post. Well done! And thanks for the answer...even though I don't like it at all.
November 28th, 2016 at 1:53 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 2:00 PM ^
Forgot who they said it touched, but the call was that it was touched around the 11.
November 28th, 2016 at 2:02 PM ^
so apparently you had already started drinking and just didn't know it! The ball hit a Michigan player before rolling a few more yards.
November 28th, 2016 at 2:06 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 2:14 PM ^
The answer seems to depend on where the ball was EXACTLY spotted at the 25 yard line.
It's not a break the plane situation as with the goal line.
The ball needed to be advanced 10 yards.
Where was the tip of the ball resting on the 25? Did the tip lie an inch or two past the 25-yard line? If so, then the first down required the tip to EXCEED the 15-yard hash by an inch or two.
** I will assume OKWolverine is correct below -- then it would be a break of the plane situation.
November 28th, 2016 at 2:31 PM ^
"These threads are fine. It's therapeutic." and now I'm all: "KILL ME NOW!!!!"
November 28th, 2016 at 2:50 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 4:09 PM ^
I've been in kill me now mode since Saturday afternoon. This isn't therapeutic at all... I'm in the bargaining stage so just let me bargain a bit.
November 28th, 2016 at 2:37 PM ^
November 28th, 2016 at 3:20 PM ^
This thread is so fucking stupid. The ball starts OT on the 25 yard line. It does not matter where the ball is spotted by the ref to start. It is understood that the ball is touching the edge of the 25 yard line. The center is going to move the ball a few inches anyways. If any part of the ball is spotted over the edge of the 15 yard line, it is a first down. Hence, no need for refs to measure. The ref knew he was giving a first down if he spotted any part of the ball touching the 15 yard line.
But this doesn't fucking matter because the ball was 6 inches short of the 15 yard line.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:08 PM ^
Your mom is so fucking stupid? I don't know man... I'm out of burns.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:04 PM ^
If only we (USA) had transitioned to the metric system back in the '70's as had been planned. The line to gain would have been 10m from the 25m-line, and JT would have been clearly short of the 15m line.
Sigh.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:11 PM ^
I would guess it is probably not the "front edge" of the line, but probably somewhere just beyond it, but not quite the middle.
Why the uncertainty?
Well in that situation the ball started on the 25 yard line. The chains therefore would be set theoretically with the starting post centered on the 25 yard line.
Assuming the following:
- The width of the post is less than the full width of the yard line
- The actual length between the center of the two posts is exactly 10 yards
The distance to gain would be beyond the front edge of the 15 yardline, and should require a freaking measurement.
November 28th, 2016 at 4:22 PM ^
This is not a debate. These are the rules. Since it was the start of the overtime, the line to gain was the front of of the 15 yard line. If the ball is spotted with any part touching the 15 yard line, it is a first down.
If a player is tackled on the 25, then there would be a measurement at the 15 possibly.
Abbott: You throw the ball to first base.
Costello: Then who gets it?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: Now you've got it.
Costello: I throw the ball to Naturally.
THERE SHOULD BE NO DEBATE ABOUT WHERE THE BALL WAS SPOTTED ON THE 25....
That is what makes this thread dogshit....
November 28th, 2016 at 4:33 PM ^
2x post..
November 28th, 2016 at 4:32 PM ^
Not to intentionally sound like Harbaugh, but is that written in the rulebook somewhere? Why wouldn't it be subject to a measurement just like any other play?
The only case I know of where the edge of a line matters is the front edge of the goaline in a Touchdown or Touchback situation (downing a punt) or the trailing edge of the goaline in a Safety situation. Why is this situation different?
