Redshirt question

Submitted by wisecrakker on August 23rd, 2013 at 10:12 AM

So Devin plays the entire year, Morris doesn't see the field.  From what I have read, Hoke can confirm a redshirt after the season.

From Wiki: While the redshirt status may be conferred by a coach at the beginning of the year, it is not confirmed until the end of the season, and more specifically, it does not rule a player ineligible in advance to participate in the season. If a player shows great talent, or there are injuries on the team, the coach may remove the redshirt status and allow the player to participate in competition for the remainder of the year.

Some clarification and/or additional insight from the guru's please.

Go Blue!

Comments

1464

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:15 AM ^

Yes.  It's been discussed. And discussed.  If he doesn't play, he can redshirt.  He can dress for every game.  He can dress like a clown and stand on the sidelines for every game.  He can decide not to dress and streak across the field for every game.  As long as he does not play.

icefins26

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:17 AM ^

They will not redshirt him.  He will get some snaps in CMU/Akron/UConn/Minnesota, depending on score so we avoid an instance where if Devin goes down, Shane is not ready.  He will not redshirt...no way.  He needs to be ready if Devin goes down.

Mr. Yost

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:58 AM ^

And can you tell me when exactly he'll be in the game so I can make sure I'm paying attention?

For people to talk in "matter of fact" about something that have NO FUCKING CLUE about is absolutely ridiculous.

If Hoke said that he's not going to redshirt, then go ahead and use that as your source. Otherwise, state your OPINION. Because that's all it is. And you know what they say about opinions...

On top of that, I cannot STAND that rationale that "he'll play so he'll be game ready." That's so stupid. How does playing with the backups against another teams backups get you "game ready?" Especially when the other team is 'Directional Michigan'.

Morris will face more comp. in practice running with the #2's vs. our #1 defense than he would handing the ball off to Thomas Rawls when we're up 35 against some crap school.

I'm not saying this is going to happen...but why can't he be listed as the #2 QB and still not play in games? If he needs to take meaningful snaps, then you send him in. Otherwise, hold the clipboard and watch Brian Cleary and DeAnthony Haridson go to work.

It's unusual, but so is redshirting seniors and Hoke has tried that twice now (Stonum and Hagerup).

EGD

August 23rd, 2013 at 12:51 PM ^

I can recall numerous season in which Michigan's starting QB remained healthy through the entire season: 1993, 1994, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2011.

Some of the other seasons Michigan played multiple QBs, but due to not having a clear #1 starter rather than being forced into it by injury: 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2009.

I can see the logic in both approaches (play Morris early vs. try to keep his redshirt), but I don't think the assumption that Morris will definitely be needed at some point is a valid one.

funkywolve

August 23rd, 2013 at 1:36 PM ^

It's a little questionable as to whether the starting QB stayed healthy all year.  Gutz was the starter but got injured before the games began.  Henne did stay healthy all year though.

2010 isn't really accurate either.  Denard might have started all the games but there were times when he had to come out due to injury and Forcier was sent in.

funkywolve

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:33 AM ^

You can try to replicate game like situations in practice but it's a whole different beast.  You can pull Devin and leave the rest of the starters out for a possession or two to get Shane experience with them.  Game experience is game experience - try as hard as a coach wants but you can't replicate that in practice.  It's why Borges (and I think Mattison too) always say we won't really know until we see a player in the game. 

Hagerup and Stonum:  their redshirts were essentially punishments for actions off the field.

Billy Ray Valentine

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:36 AM ^

I think the point about garbage-time-playing vs. practice-time-playing is legitimate, but not that black and white.  I agree that from a physical standpoint, playing QB in practice vs. the 1's is much more advantageous to the development of a QB's tools.  That said, I can't imagine you could ever duplicate the mental feel of taking snaps in front of 100K+, even if 1/4th of the stadium has emptied out.  If, as a coach, I'm truly trying to prepare a future team-leading QB, I'd want to do both.  In this situation, it becomes a cost/benefit analysis, in which Hoke only knows the answer. 

 

Like most, I would love to see Devin play every meaningful snap this year.  Cleary can hand off to Rawls when we're up by 35.  That said, I can't fully agree with the point that garbage time snaps are 100% meaningless.  If Hoke has decided that Shane will start if Devin goes down, I'd prefer that Shane take the garbage time snaps ... but my opinion means jacksh!t.  

Come On Down

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:19 AM ^

When was the last time any team never played anyone but their #1 QB all season? Morris being the #2 and not playing is a crazy hypothetical, it's not going to happen.

DonAZ

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:25 AM ^

I agree with this ... we can pretty well bank on Morris playing this year.

The recruiting focus will turn to keeping the QB pipeline full.  With the way they're recruiting offensive line, RB and WR it's going to be fairly easy to sell a top-flight QB on Michigan.

Leaders And Best

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:36 AM ^

Their backup QB played in every game as the holder for FGs and PATs but did not throw his first pass of the year until the bowl game. Most of Syracuse's games were close and only beat one team by more than 21 points (UConn) before the bowl game.

Extremely unlikely that Morris will not play if he is the #2 QB. The coaches will try to get the #2 QB some action in one of the first MAC nonconf games that will most likely be blowouts.

MGoRyan

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:40 AM ^

Agree, and I have no issue with this.  I'm fine with him taking a few snaps a game for 2 years (assuming DG stays) to get experience.  Having him start his junior year with a good amount of playing time under his belt would ease my nerves, and hopefully we'll have a full pipeline of backups by then.  Also, if DG does leave, then he'll have seen some game time this year in preparation for next fall.  Win-win if you ask me.

MI Expat NY

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:58 AM ^

Can you imagine the furor the coaching staff would face if Gardner got hurt playing out the game in a 30+ win over Central or Akron.  The fear of this alone means someone else should be guaranteed to take some snaps.  

Now, I guess I could see an argument that if coaches believe Morris is truly not going to be ready this year and any Gardner injury is a lost season a la the 1984 season after Harbaugh broke his arm, then maybe Cleary gets those garbage snaps in an effort to try and preserve Morris' redshirt unless the unthinkable happens.  I doubt this would happen though, especially in light of Nebraska last year.  The only way I see this happening is if the coaching staff thinks a Gardner injury automatically means a 1-4 November, and if that's true, it wouldn't be a good sign for Morris anyway.  

Mr. Yost

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:02 AM ^

Why can't you play your #3 and #4 QBs if it's just mop up duty?

Who made up the rule that you HAVE to play your #2 QB during mop up time? Do you have to play #2 in order to play #3 even later in the game?

Just because people think Morris could stay on the bench doesn't mean those same people think that Gardner takes every snap.

Spontaneous Co…

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:42 AM ^

Is it likely that they play Morris in some games if he is the number 2?  Yes.  But it is not a foregone conclusion.  The argument that most good talents don't stay for a fifth year, so burn it this year is silly.  We've had some damn good QBs here that have been NFL material and they all stayed for their maximum eligibility except for Henson, who left for a different sport.  It seems premature to assume that Morris is going to be so good that he'll declare early.  I could very well see the coaches designate Morris as the #2 guy but not play him in games that are not contested.  Yost is right, and more importantly, Yost didn't say Morris wouldn't play, he pointed out that there are weaknesses in the argument that mop up time is essential for the number 2 QB.  While their might be some advantage to playing in an "actual" game, if the game is out of hand, it won't be nearly as helpful as preparing against our own defense in practice.  Now, if a poster says they're pretty sure Morris will play because of how unlikely it is that Gardner can make it through all the close games without gettick nicked up and needing a temporary replacement, then I would agree with that.  But to say that Hoke will definitely put Morris on the field, no matter what, simply because he's been designated as the number 2 guy, seems illogical.  In fact, it sounds like the staff does contemplate these situations.  We seem to be learning now that Kalis, at some point in the last season, was probably better than some of the people that played ahead of him last year, but the staff felt it was better to preserve his redshirt.  I know it is slightly different for a lineman versus a QB, but I think the point is that they might very well keep Morris off the field unless the situation dictates that he needs to play for us to win.

Come On Down

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:47 AM ^

The #2 guy needs to take snaps in mop up duty because if the #1 guy goes out for a significant period of time the #2 guy needs to be as prepared as possible to step in. The coaches have a responsibility to put the team in a position to win as many games as possible, and that means making sure the team is as well-positioned to absorb injuries as can be expected. If Garner gets injured and Morris has seen zero game snaps the team will suffer more so than if Morris had played even a little. You can only learn so much in practice, eventually a player needs to get in-game snaps in order to be ready.

Also, we've heard the coaches say many times that the guys who deserve to play will get a chance to play. Skipping someone on the depth chart in order to preserve a hypothetical 2017 redshirt year would be completely inconsistent with this statement.

This is why you don't keep your #2 QB on the bench when the #1 QB goes out.

Mr. Yost

August 23rd, 2013 at 3:39 PM ^

And clearly you've never played or been around football long enough to know.

Tell me this.

Last year Gardner was a WR for 2/3 of the season. He got NO snaps as a mop up QB...didn't he do pretty damn well in the last 5 games of the season?

That argument is pretty bogus.

mgobaran

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:23 AM ^

He can even play some snaps in the first three games (maybe four?), and still get a redshirt if he doesn't play the rest of the year. Now idk how many snaps/game he can rack up in the first 3-4 games before he is deemed ineligible for the RS, but maybe you can look that up yourself. 

GoBlueInNYC

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:40 AM ^

The last redshirt thread proved to me that I don't know as much about this as I think I do so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure the 30% rule (which you're referring to) might only apply to medical waivers. Gardner played in a few games his freshman season than was sidelined with a "back injury" the rest of the season. They applied for a medical waiver to grant him a redshirt for that season.

I don't think Morris can play a few games than get a normal non-participation redshirt. I think that only works if he missed 70%+ of the season due to injury.

LSAClassOf2000

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:46 AM ^

Section 14.2.4(c) under "Hardship Waiver":

"In team sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three contests or dates of competition (whichever is applicable to that sport) or 30 percent (whichever number is greater) of the institution’s scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in his or her sport."

It then goes on a long diatribe about how the dates and times of competition are determined, but this first sentence is pretty much the gist.

danimal1968

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:33 AM ^

Bylaw 14.2.3.1: "Any competition, regardless of time, during a season in an intercollegiate sport shall be counted as a season of competition in that sport...."

One snap = a season of competition used, unless the player gets hurt.

mgobaran

August 23rd, 2013 at 12:32 PM ^

You leave out one little piece of information (injury/illness/"hardship") and everybody loses their minds!

Not to mention you can totally make up an injury or hardship during the season to get the damn redshirt. All you got to do is sack the kid, have him limp around a bit, sit him a week, document it and BOOM!...Redshirt. 

twinter333

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:25 AM ^

he's the number 2 guy.  he'll play in mop-up duty early on to get him game experience.  in some fantasy world you might think they'd play cleary in mop-up duty so that they don't have to burn the redshirt but i think last year's nebraska game has taught us all a little something... the second best qb on the team should be the backup qb and he should be ready to play when called upon.  he's not getting a redshirt.  end of story.

Mr. Yost

August 25th, 2013 at 7:51 AM ^

That is not a fact or "fantasy world." Why didn't they play Kalis last year when he was ahead as an OG but already deep into the season as a redshirt? Why didn't they give Gardner any mop up time last year at QB once Bellomy was out? Instead, we had walk-ons playing QB. It's been documented that you're entire argument is false. You should read before posting.

jethro34

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:30 AM ^

Not to mention that if Devin has an outstanding season and is getting discussed as a potential 1st or 2nd rounder, he could be gone. I don't think anyone would be excited about the idea of going into next season with Bellomy being the only QB on the roster who has taken gameday snaps.

jtmc33

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:36 AM ^

.... and remember, Devin already graduated and has his undergrad degree from UofM; he is now a grad-student.   With his degree in hand, and a full-year as a starter under his belt, I could see any QB leaving "early" for the NFL even if he's a mid-round draft-pick.

Morris has to play and be ready to start in 2014.

jtmc33

August 23rd, 2013 at 12:34 PM ^

No.

But we've seen many, many RJr. QBs go pro (without a degree) and be more than content being a 4-5th round draft pick.   At Running Back, just last year, there were about 6 guys that went early to get drafted late.... money talks.

The point is that you never know if a kid is going to go pro, and having a degree in hand, makes it more likely.  So, you have to play Morris just in case Gardner bolts.

champswest

August 23rd, 2013 at 10:55 AM ^

about redshirting, IMHO. Today's top talents are more unlikely to stay for that 5th year anyway. Hoke doesn't have a choice with Morris, as has been well explained in this thread.

Perkis-Size Me

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:00 AM ^

I think we're at a point now where Shane's redshirt is kaput. Given our lack of healthy scholarship QBs with actual game experience, we should probably treat this season like Gardner will have a great year, and consider bolting. He may, he may not, but either way, Shane needs to get some game time snaps. I don't think any of us want to be in the situation next year where Bellomy is the only QB on the roster to have taken snaps should Gardner decide to leave.

Not disrespect meant to Bellomy, but Shane is the future, or at least that's what we've all been saying nonstop for the last two years. But if we're lucky, Gardner will want to stick around and have two great years, allowing Shane to learn the system for another year and get Wilton his redshirt.

Elmer

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:02 AM ^

I thought you might be a fellow engineer asking for fashion advice since you are style-challenged.

My wife tells me that red shirts go good with black, gray or tan pants.  Hope this helps.

1201SouthMain

August 23rd, 2013 at 11:16 AM ^

They don't worry about 5 years from now when they could have a 5th year senior QB in Morris.  They think about this year!  They want the best #2 to play.  They will need him at some point this year.

There is some 14 year old kids somewhere that will be a 6 star in 4 years and Morris buring his redshirt will be a total non issue.