RB recruiting in 2014
I was wondering if we'll take any RBs in this class. I haven't seen any RB offers go out in this class (Elijah Hood was one) but not too many others.
I know we have two in the last class with Deveon Smith and Derrick Green but considering Fitz is a senior and we have no other 'elite' back on our roster will we take another?
I see the following:
Thomas Rawls
Drake Johnson
Justice Hayes
Dennis Norfleet
Deveon Smith
Derrick Green
Fitz Touissant
Maybe Peppers will also play on offense?
You're just being obstinate right now.
Nobody's saying he's not ATHLETIC. What people are saying is that he's athletic ENOUGH to play TAILBACK at a school like Michigan.
Look for the difference between those two things, because it's pretty significant. And it doesn't really have much to do with Derrick Green. I would say the same thing about Shallman if he were the only running back in the class. Other recruits don't affect his foot speed, agility, etc. All that stuff comes from his genes, workouts, practices, etc.
Hah. That's not what you've been saying. You've been saying that we're racist for not believing that Shallman can play running back. IIRC, that's where you entered the conversation.
Then you went on a bunch of tangents about how if he were from Pahokee, we wouldn't say the same thing...and that lots of RB's Shallman's size have been successful (yet you haven't named even one)...and that he's a 4-star RB across the board (which is categorically false).
And now you've settled on "I trust the coaches more than you."
I don't blame you for trusting the coaches more than me. You should. I do, too. That doesn't mean they're incapable of being wrong.
"it's not that you're racist, it's just that you're racist."
Or it's the good old "He's just not very fast/athletic corollary." Let me point you to my Stephen Hopkins commitment post from a few years ago. You don't have to bother with the link, because I'll quote the relevant part here:
He is a big back and, if nothing more, he will likely develop into a short yardage back or fullback.
Sometimes guys just aren't very good runners, and that's okay. Race doesn't have anything to do with my judgments, and perhaps you shouldn't assume the worst from everyone on here. Maybe, just maybe, Shallman isn't a quality tailback.
http://touchthebanner.blogspot.com/2009/04/stephen-hopkins-wolverine.ht…
"to make a complete evaluation off video w/o seeing guys in-person - I don't believe that at all." - Josh Helmholdt
It's odd that you post that in response to a link in which I said that Hopkins would probably be nothing more than a short yardage tailback or fullback, which is ultimately what happened.
1 out of everything you have ever "done" ain't bad... or wait yes it is, it's terrible.
"to make a complete evaluation off video w/o seeing guys in-person - I don't believe that at all." - Josh Helmholdt
but I always think of Khalid Hill and Wyatt Shallman together and playing a similar role in the future but complimenting each other as a runner/pass catcher out of that U-Back spot or whatever it is called.
Did you go to Catholic Central?
That'll get some carries and some catches.
Let's be honest with ourselves.
Think Chris Floyd.
Floyd went about 6'2, 235...
But yes, 5 or so carries and a couple of catches per game seems about right. I look forward to seeing him lead the way for Green and Smith down the road. Blocking for Morris or Speight. He should have a great career at Michigan.
Hopefully like Floyd, he can be a 3rd round draft pick. Yea, that's right, Chris Floyd was drafted higher than ANY Michigan player in the last couple of years. Jonas Mouton was the last player Michigan had that was drafted higher than Chris Floyd (slightly misleading because Floyd was #81 overall and Mike Martin was #82).
Or how about a guy like Mike Alstott? I was real young so I don't remember if he played running back or fullback at Purdue. In Tampa Bay he did get the ball a lot and he would block as well, maybe Shallman will be used the same way, I'd like to see it.
I would be interested to see your long list of running backs who came out of high school at 6'3" and 225 lbs. and found great success.
PURELY looking at similar heights/weights here; these are post-college so i'm sure each of these guys gained 10-20 pounds while at school:
Leveon Bell - 6'2", 230 - is probably the closest comparison from a size standpoint. Will Shallman put on 10lb to get up to 235, probably, but still, these guys are in the ball park, and this is just from the past couple NFL drafts:
Eddie Lacy - 5'11", 231
Marcus Lattimore - 6'0", 218
Terrance Gannaway - 6'0", 240
And a few more with similar size that are doing okay in the NFL:
Adrian Peterson - 6'1", 217
Arian Foster - 6'1, 228
Matt Forte - 6'2, 218
Steven Jackson - 6'2", 240
So...just to be clear...you didn't find a single 6'3", 225 lb. high school running back who went on to have success in FBS football. What you found is a bunch of shorter guys who were lighter coming out of high school.
Lacy: 5'11", 210 lbs.
Bell: 6'1", 220 lbs.
Lattimore: 6'0", 210 lbs.
Ganaway: 6'0", 199 lbs.
Peterson: 6'2", 210 lbs.
Foster:6'1", 208 lbs.
Forte: 6'1", 220 lbs.
Jackson: N/A
Those players have put on an average of 16 pounds from high school to the weights you listed.
If Shallman is indeed 6'3" and 225 lbs. right now (he's listed at 245 in some places but that is reportedly way too high of a weight), then he will presumably be 6'3" and 241 lbs. by the time he hits the NFL (if he makes it). The list of successful running backs at approximately that size is very small. Off the top of my head, I can think of T.J. Duckett, Brandon Jacobs, and Christian Okoye who might approach that size. I think Duckett and Jacobs were/are 6'4". I'm not sure about Okoye.
Just to be clear, you think 1 to 2 inches in height above the norm precludes someone from being a good running back. I see.
Remind me never to trust your analysis ever again.
...that doesn't even come close to what Magnus said. Nice straw man. You made a wild claim, didn't back it up, and now are whining about it.
Yes, I admit, I made an absurdly wild claim that Shallman is a running back. Except:
1) Shallman says he is a running back.
2) Shallman was recruited by the Michigan coaches as a running back.
3) Nobody in any official position related to Michigan football has renegged on their initial belief that Shallman is a running back.
4) There are running backs in the NFL that have similar measurables.
5) There are running backs in the NFL that have similar body types/size.
But hey, he doesn't fit Magnus' description of what a running back is so forget those facts. Dudeness actually may have had Magnus pegged.
That wasn't the claim I meant. I was referring to your claim that Shallman's size is similar to that of many successful running backs. This is obvious based on this part of the comment thread. But keep going with your straw men if it makes you that comfortable.
His size IS similar to many good backs, unless you think 1-2 inches in height and 5-10 pounds makes someone dissimilar. Under your logic, everyone would need to be the exact same height/weight? I don't understand.
You do realize that 6'2" is tall for a running back, right? And that any increment above 6'2" is farther outside of the norm? And did you check out the statistics (aside from your assertions) that say the average running back is about 5'10.5"? Shallman's not an inch or two outside of the norm. If his measurements are right, he's 4.5" taller than the average NFL running back.
What running backs in the NFL have similar sizes/measurables? So far you haven't found a guy taller than 6'2", let alone the fact that there's a good chance all those NFL guys you listed have measurables (like 40 times, shuttle times, etc.) that are superior to Shallman.
Furthermore, you're talking about *NFL* guys. I'm talking about high schoolers. Yes, you're right that some guys in the NFL are approaching 225 lbs....and most of those guys were about 200-210 lbs. coming out of high school. What you seem to be forgetting is that guys typically bulk up in college, which you're not accounting for. You apparently think that Shallman will still be 6'3", 225 lbs. when he graduates from college.
He'll likely be 6'3, 240 when he leaves. Steven Jackson is 6'2, 240. A whole handful of guys are 6'1, 230. Does that extra inch and 10 pounds automatically disqualify him from being a running back, especially at the collegiate level?
Also, his reported 4.7 forty time would put him right in the middle of the 2013 NFL combine RB class, his reported 38" vertical towards the top: http://walterfootball.com/combine2013RB.php
"Does that extra inch and 10 pounds automatically disqualify him from being a running back, especially at the collegiate level?"
Yes. That is the only reason that I have provided throughout this entire argument. He is an inch taller than other running backs, so he is destined to be a failure. Thank you for reading all of the facts that I have provided for you. You clearly entered this conversation with an open mind and a wealth of knowledge about the subject.
I'm finished having this conversation with you. It's going nowhere.
"to make a complete evaluation off video w/o seeing guys in-person - I don't believe that at all." - Josh Helmholdt
A) You don't think Shallman is a running back, that's obvious through all your posts.
B) In this post and some other you say it isn't his height/weight that are the issue but rather the athleticism, but ignore that his athletic measurables compare favorably to guys DRAFTED BY THE NFL this past year.
C) In other posts you DO say it is his size, for instance, " The list of successful running backs at approximately that size is very small."
You, sir, are the one going in circles. Schizo.
"Dudeness actually may have had Magnus pegged. "
Accurate.
Claiming to know things and screaming them from the mountain tops doesn't mean you know shit. It just means you are a loud mouth.
Your last seven comments have been nothing more than attempts to insult me, and have added nothing relevant to the discussion topic.
"to make a complete evaluation off video w/o seeing guys in-person - I don't believe that at all." - Josh Helmholdt
At this point to the degree of banning you, all you're doing is responding to posts by Magnus with the same quote and not saying anything meaningful. In fact, I'd venture to say over half your posts are direct attacks at Magnus and don't pertain to the topic at hand. I really wish the mods would just do away with you, and the fact that I think they have a valid case to do so and haven't is very annoying. Magnus and I have had disagreements before, I understand he isn't the easiest guy to get along with (I'm not either), but you're just a douche, and one that isn't insightful or funny or in any way meaningful to this board.
As if you were around when this board wasn't a Magnus dick slurping contest. If you want recruiting expertise and actual scouting on recruits then go to Rivals, Scout, 247, ESPN, etc.
I am putting this comment behind everything that Magnus posts because it is true. There are people who get paid to do this stuff by actually taveling to see these prospects and interview them and write about them. Magnus (the almighty) just watches free youtube clips and writes uninformed opinions that clearly aren't to be believed.
You are all so hard up for any sort of recruiting info that you will take it from any source, even one that is woefully uninformed and many times just plain inaccurate.
It's annoying and it should be done away with in my opinion. As much as you hate my being here, I hate this board turning into some sort of advertisement for Magnus ( his holiness) and his simply dredful recruiting opinions.
Oh and my mom thinks I'm funny as shit. Seriously.
If they want to follow everything Magnus says, fine. He is better informed than most on here. At least he actually watches highlight videos and says his opinion on those. It gives readers of this site and his site something else, another opinion perhaps, that they can take with a grain of salt or not.
The fact of the matter is, that your annoying negative banter does more to pump up Magnus than anything else. If you want people to stop paying attention to it, then stop bringing it to the forefront every chance you get. If you were ever something other than a complete dick about it, maybe people would even agree with you a little bit, but you're damn near impossible to agree with because you're a troll. At the end of the day though, your posts just take up time and clutter the board. They add nothing. They take away from the board. They are annoying and childish and unproductive as a whole. They are also way overboard. You can say you disagree with Magnus, I've done it plenty of times and I don't troll around here pasting a repetitive quote to try to prove a point. I say my opinion and move on. Or you can just move on. But responding to everyone of his posts on every thread is tiresome.
Robert Frost said "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on."
You should go on.
" He is better informed than most on here."
Why do people keep typing that?!
THAT'S NOT TRUE!!
That is my point. I think one time someone wrote that and now everyone believes it. It isn't true. He is no more or less informed than anyone else. That's the whole point. He claims to be, but he isn't.
Someone who goes to the movie and is on their cell phone the whole time. They may not be terribly well informed, but they're more informed then someone who's only read the title.
Now I disagree beyond that, I think you can take some things from a highlight video. I think someone who has coached can see some of those things. No, he can't see everything, nor does he claim to. No he isn't as informed as people that see more video or go to games that feature these recruits. But he's more informed than people that don't even watch the videos.
I'm not going to sit here and pump up Magnus anymore (which you're the reason I'm doing that, so maybe you should stop posting the things you do). My main point wasn't whether you should believe Magnus or not, I don't really care if people trust his opinion or not. What I care about is that you annoy me and many other on this board, and I wish it would stop. I wish you could move on to other things, but apparently your sole mission on this board is to contribute nothing other than being a douche. Because at the end of the day, none of us are all that informed about what's going on with Michigan football, but we still talk about because we enjoy it, and we still read about it because we enjoy it.
The two worst things about this whole thing is you rep the moniker "His Dudeness" and act so un-dude; and you make it irritating, if only temporarily, to see C. Woodson in an avatar, and that should never be the case. Stop harassing people if you have nothing better to do and let everyone else decide how they chose to view others opinions.
I'm not going to respond anymore because it's just going to be a bunch of BS back and forth like what happened above. I've made my point and said my opinion.
"What I care about is that you annoy me and many other on this board, and I wish it would stop."
I'm so so sorry, man. Seriously I can't believe people still walk around this earth wishing everyone who disagreed with them would just go away. As Robert Frost once said "grow the fuck up."
Also YOU are the one and only person here who went to personal attacks. Stop acting like your opinion is the only one that matters on the orb.
Please find evidence that I have ever "claimed to be more informed" than anyone else. I would be very interested to see those quotes.
concerning football is that the actual, real life coaches, of the college teams great and small, never see most of them play games in person. They might see them at camp, but they're not going down the Friday night before their own games to see them. They're watching film. And since it's high school, it's often the film given to them....the kind that appears online nowadays. Not really any different than scouting the teams they play all season, which they review off of film. They don't send college scouts to the games of their opponents. So they don't see them in person either, but do analysis. This isn't basketball. Josh is wrong.
Exactly. I've made this point in previous threads when people try to throw that factoid/quote in my face, and it just doesn't hold up in real life. Even if coaches attended football games every Friday night, they still couldn't get out to see all the players Michigan has offered in Florida, Colorado, California, New Jersey, etc. They might head over to Detroit Country Day or Warren De La Salle or Ann Arbor Pioneer, but those places are within driving distance. And often when I've seen coaches at high school football games, it's to watch players who are already committed to their program. They're not going to fly out to Los Angeles on Friday, watch a game, and then take a red-eye flight home and be ready for a game at Michigan Stadium at noon on Saturday.
It's a silly quote (that might be taken out of context), and it was supposedly made by Josh Helmholdt, who's quite experienced but isn't exactly a renowned recruiting specialist.
SMH.
Let's go back to the beginning of this conversation, where I said that he lacks agility and speed (as did Space Coyote)...
But no no no no, I think it's the one or two inches of height that's going to stop him. That's the only reason.
BTW, here's a statistical analysis of NFL running back height. You'll notice (or maybe you won't) that the average height of NFL running backs in 2012 was 70.64 inches, which is just under 5'11". So a 6'3" guy isn't "1 or 2 inches" above the norm. In fact, he's about 4 inches above the norm.
Don't let my facts and previous statements in this thread get in the way of you trying to make stuff up, though.
I think you're both wrong!
(joke)
FEATS OF STRENGTH!
(not joking)
Looking in the past, I seen Eric Dickerson listed at 6'3" and Jim Brown at 6'2".
Magnus has yet to write a scouting report on those two losers so I am sure they are garbage.
Unless magnus thinks they are great prospects in which case I will also think they are great prospects.