Ramzy on M-OSU rivalry gave me some satisfaction
Ramzy's latest The Situational on Eleven Warriors is the only site in the last week that has given me satisfaction about this year's The Game. Not happiness mind you. That won't come till we beat them. But Ramzy really laid out WHY this happened. And WHY OSU cares more about the game than we do.
It's a great read. Here are a couple of quotes:
"On Meyer putting the M rivalry on a pedestal:
- it elevates the importance of winning that game and makes doing so a pillar of the program.
- it shares a recipe for rivalry management institutionally impossible for Michigan to copy."
"There are winged helmets displayed all over the Ohio State practice facility, year-round. They don't call Michigan disparaging names - or any name at all. Fans can say or do whatever they want, but as an institution and a football program Ohio State reveres and respects its rival. Michigan reveres and respects Michigan."
"The Buckeyes' rivalry management system post-Cooper works quite well, is indefinitely sustainable and doesn't rely on unsolicited contributions from a rival for energy. If they drop one or three to the Wolverines, they'll keep the Ohio State-Michigan game on the same pedestal."
Ramzy in the NYT:
“Every year is its own chapter, but the story doesn’t really change,” said Ramzy Nasrallah, executive editor of the Ohio State site Eleven Warriors. “The story is that Ohio State’s aspiration is to be Michigan.”
“Michigan does not want to be Ohio State,” Nasrallah, the Eleven Warriors editor, said, “because Michigan wants to be Michigan and still beat Ohio State.”
That's bold. And honest. And true.
As long as Harbaugh insists that every game is equal, nothing will change for the next 7 years...
p.s. the other read that gave me some satisfaction was Space Coyote on the x's and o's
November 28th, 2018 at 6:11 PM ^
I just don’t buy the emphasis-as-cause story much. Alabama, who presumably doesn’t focus on OSU at all, will likely beat the Buckeyes if they meet in the playoff. And that will be because they have better players and better coaches.
OSU has been putting more talented teams on the field against Michigan since at least 2008. And, other than 2011, they’ve had the better of the coaching match-up (in a purely amoral, wins and losses sense) every year since 2008. That’s the simplest and most likely explanation for the disparity in the rivalry by far.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:15 PM ^
^^^^^^^^^ This right here!
November 28th, 2018 at 6:17 PM ^
I don't know that they have better coaches and better players. I don't know that they will beat OSU. We really don't know what Alabama is, but give Urban a month to prepare, and I wouldn't be surprised if OSU won. I also don't believe Michigan and Harbaugh treat the OSU game as just another game. I think our boys spent a lot of energy getting through the revenge tour, and might have hit a wall and got overwhelmed by OSU. I'm just a little surprised Michigan didn't seem prepared for OSU's best. They seemed to think they would just mash them.
November 28th, 2018 at 7:25 PM ^
Meyer is probably the second-best coach of his generation. It's no insult to Harbaugh, but Meyer is the better coach. And the kind of talent that OSU has accumulated since Meyer took over far outpaces Michigan's roster.
November 28th, 2018 at 10:45 PM ^
Meyer obviously has the upper hand because he's been winning the head to head but one could argue he got outcoached by Harbaugh the last two years. If it wasn't for biased officiating the one year and a QB who was a nice enough person but was deer-in-the-headlights on gameday last year, we win both those games. Harbaugh had the better schemes and gameplans IMO.
And I'm convinced Meyer knew it. He realized he dodged two huge bullets and prepared his ass off for The Game this year. He needed to because his highly talented team played like garbage most of the year. You have to take that into account as well when you evaluate their respective performances.
Then you factor in the nature of competition. OSU knew they needed their very very best game to have a chance against us. And maybe we looked at their tape, weren't as impressed, saw some things we thought we should be able to exploit, we had been on this long win streak...recipe for disaster.
I have't bothered to read any X's and O's stuff about their underneath mesh routes because frankly, the whole thing has been very upsetting. This was the year we were supposed to avenge the last two years that we played well enough to win (except at the QB position last year).
Anyway I love Harbaugh, Brown, Warriner, I believe we have an elite staff and I believe they will figure out how to stop that offense by next year.
November 29th, 2018 at 12:28 AM ^
They've played 4 times and Harbaugh has won the coaching matchup twice. They are pretty much equals in my opinion. 2016 they lost b/c of turnovers and zebras, 2017 b/c of pure talent, but Harbaugh out-coached Meyer both of those years, so Ramzy can take his theories and shove 'em. 2015 was talent and coaching in favor of OSU (thanks for taking the week off, DJ) and that's how you get 42-13. I would say OSU dominated the coaching Saturday and had a slight advantage in talent. Michigan dominated the 90s b/c of John Cooper, flat out.
Harbaugh and Meyer will trade blows year-in, year-out but in the long run, if Michigan wants to be even with OSU, they're going to have to recruit on par with them. A #22 class here and there won't cut it.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:29 PM ^
Question. How do you put your opinion in the context of msu? Half the folks on this blog are using the osu game as smug satisfaction because they hate that we take 3 star players. Guess what? We've always had better rosters than msu if you go only by star ratings. Even in the dark post-Carr days.
And guess what again? Until we out-perform those oh-so-important star ratings, we aren't gonna out-recruit teams like osu and alabama. Full stop.
But msu has always been a tough out because of exactly what the linked articles talk about. Passion, emotion, and scheme.
Even if the star gazers are right, the reality is we aren't going to tip the scales on this rivalry by out-recruiting osu. It has to come on the back of passion, player development, and superior game-planning.
Tldr: if you only think michigan wins against osu via superior recruiting, just throw in the damn towel. At least until meyer leaves. And, most probably, even after that.
Cheers.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:38 PM ^
During Morks time there, that coincides with RR and Hoke, MSU had better teams. They got every good player from the state of Michigan and they got every player from Ohio that OSU didn't want. I agree with your premise, but those MSU teams were all favored to win, except for 2 years.
November 28th, 2018 at 7:15 PM ^
Idevon1, please go check the 247 composite rankings.
I just checked 2007 to 2012. There wasn't a single season where michigan didn't out-recruit msu. Sometimes by a little - sometimes by a lot.
Full stop. Keep in mind I quite agree if your point relates to player development once they're in the program. But if someone thinks it starts and ends with stars, we should have been crushing msu every year since carr left.
Cheers.
November 28th, 2018 at 9:04 PM ^
I hear ya, and I'll be honest I didn't look, but just my recollection of those years seems like we got every higher ranked player that just sucked. It could have been player development, or we just got kids that were getting the Michigan recruit bump, but those teams didn't send any players to the NFL, and we were the underdog in all those games.
November 29th, 2018 at 9:31 AM ^
I know it's not what he said, but I would argue his point was that MSU had better teams. Even if we outrecruited them by rankings, MSU had superior talent those years. They had some legitimately loaded teams.
November 29th, 2018 at 5:17 PM ^
They did - agree with both of you and think a lot lf it was better identification (not all 3 or 2 stars are the same) and better player development (narduzzi?).
I was just specifically talking in the context of recruiting judged by star rankings. We get a lot of angst here about "taking too many 3 stars" or whatever and I think a lot of it is unnecessary. We've had some really good 3 stars and some less inspiring 4 stars and I'm sure some of it is development by the coaches, some of it is around how a kid fills out as he gets older, some of it is around personal drive, and there are a million other factors (where the kid went to school, how long he played football, was he dual sport, a lot of other stuff).
I feel like we get a good amount of great, talented kids, that's all.
Cheers.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:30 PM ^
Pete Carroll put out more talented teams against Notre Dame for years. Until he bolted for the NFL before he was outed for paying players.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:53 PM ^
LMAO!! I think I missed the part where anyone wrote anything about Notre Dame or Pete Carroll.
November 28th, 2018 at 7:04 PM ^
Yes, they had the more talented team, but not that much more talented. The importance of intangibles can be overestimated but when the disparity between expected and actual outcomes is that great, something beyond x’s, o’s, Jimmies and Joes has to be invoked. Repugnant as the piece was to read, I think it was mostly accurate.
November 28th, 2018 at 7:10 PM ^
They certainly have better players and coaches, but that's not what determines a win every year (see OSU-Purdue, almost OSU-Maryland this year).
Rather, I think it's a combination of all these things--not only does OSU have elite talent being schemed up by elite coaches, but they're also constantly preparing for the rivalry.
Someone on here mentioned the other day that Shea admitted he only started watching OSU film during game week, while Haskins said he's been following UM on film all year. I don't know if it's necessarily them "valuing" the rivalry more, but I'd say it's clear they're certainly preparing more and preparing longer than we are.
November 28th, 2018 at 8:51 PM ^
If that admission by Shea is accurate, our coaches are to blame. I'm not sure about viewing OSU film all year, but there's no reason why that couldn't have been done the week of the Rutger game at the very least.
November 29th, 2018 at 11:17 AM ^
OSU doesn't spend its entire season focusing on beating Alabama. That's the difference.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:11 PM ^
I don't think Harbaugh treats Ohio State like any other game.
I think he treated this game like he had the better team. And why wouldn't he think that given the season both teams had leading up to the game?
The problem is, when you're the better team, you're usually not facing the 2nd most talented team in the country, who if they put it all together, can beat anyone.
That's why he tried to play to his team's strengths as opposed to playing like an underdog.
We saw how he coached last year when he knew his team was worse. When your QB situation is that unfortunate however....
November 28th, 2018 at 6:12 PM ^
Why do we assume that the game is not emphasized here?
November 28th, 2018 at 6:13 PM ^
Because Michigan lost when everyone expected them to beat a 10-1 Ohio State team at home with ease.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:48 PM ^
Considering the fact that we are clearly the little brother currently in this rivalry, I find it very hard that OSU as a team has more respect for us than we have for them.
November 28th, 2018 at 7:50 PM ^
I think he is using the term “respect” a little differently than you think. And really the problem is, people associated with Michigan really don’t “respect” Ohio State as an athletic department. He says in the article that he finds it odd that Michigan fans must distinguish wanting “to be” them from want “to beat” them and it is a point of pride to Michigan fans and grads. He is right, but I’m not sure I see the point he is making it how it ties into their dominance of the rivalry. It very well may, I think all Michigan fans are doing a little soul searching regarding the rivalry after Saturday. It is a compelling article, I will certainly chew on for a bit.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:58 PM ^
It may be, but not on the same level as Ohio State. They could go 1-11 but if they beat Michigan it may have been worth it. There truly is no great way to explain their hatred and passion for us other than it is their season.
November 28th, 2018 at 7:39 PM ^
November 28th, 2018 at 8:28 PM ^
So you think Winovich, Gary, and co couldn't get pressure on Haskins because OSU wanted it more? Gentry dropped passes because he didn't want it enough? Shea was throwing short all game because he didn't want it enough? Did Watson not want to stick with OSU's receivers?
OSU is just way more talented and probably has a slightly better staff. Also everyone seemed to forget the game was in Columbus, or decided that didn't matter for some reason.
I'm sure OSU was way more motivated than they were against Maryland, Purdue, etc. But it's silly to think them wanting it more was the reason Michigan lost.
November 28th, 2018 at 10:22 PM ^
November 28th, 2018 at 8:19 PM ^
I don't think that is what is being said, but Ramzy is instead contending that the rivalry is framed differently by each school. I know we emphasize it heavily, but trying to talk about means and method and how that may or may not contribute to success is an interesting framework. To be fair, I don't know that I would necessarily disagree with the notion that different things are emphasized due to cultural differences inside each program, although I don't think that it is quite as he states it.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:13 PM ^
Not shooting the messenger but spare me with the “they want to be Michigan” bullshit. What the hell does that even mean? Michigan’s coaches let them down, and until they can put it all together in that game something is gonna give and we will be bitterly disappointed.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:13 PM ^
My take is a little bit different. It's been so long since we've beaten Ohio State, we've lost the taste for it. It's like pursuing something you can't have; after a while, you lose interest in it, and forget how to even do it. We've forgotten how to beat Ohio State, that feeling, and the mental preparation (brain muscle memory, if you will) it takes. Not that we don't want to beat them, but it's so ingrained in Ohio State now, they've become experts at it.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:15 PM ^
Yup, and when people think we can win we shit the bed. Hopefully it changes and we can get out of the funk.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:48 PM ^
I would assume that Michigan's coach has not forgotten about the mental preparation necessary to beat Ohio State...that's part of the reason we hired him...the evidence that he had that knowledge was the way he treated USC when he was at Stanford and how that extended when both he and Pete Carroll went to the NFL.
November 28th, 2018 at 8:27 PM ^
That was not really respect that he treated USC with. It was contempt for sure, but I don’t know if it was respect. Perhaps real legit disdain for something is a less than adequate motivator to conquer something continuously challenging. Harbaugh certainly doesn’t “revere” anything Ohio State. He, at times, treats them as something not worth his time, or at least that is hard not to be the take away. I will say this, his approach and disposition toward MSU and OSU has been far different than I expected. He seems to be particularly detached from any personal introspection as to what they mean to him. I noticed it pretty much right away and it was very evident on the Amazon series.
It is weird with Coach Harbaugh, I don’t “dislike” the version we got. But I have to say that he is not what I thought he was from afar. Not in a good or bad way, necessarily, but he is not who I thought we were getting.
November 28th, 2018 at 9:13 PM ^
I also think Harbaugh was hungrier in Stanford. You cannot minimize his competitiveness but he isn’t as hungry. Meyer knew beating Michigan would cure the ills he created and cleanse the palate of the National Media. He was self aware. Immediately he announced he was returning and his wife was crying tears of joy over the money he was keeping. Meyer was hungrier
November 28th, 2018 at 6:14 PM ^
Uh, OSU does not want to be Michigan. That was maybe true 80 years ago or whenever they started that gold pants thing.
Michigan is like OSU in the 90s. Playing tight and not to lose.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:40 PM ^
I agree. Ramzy's NYT quote was really about why OSU made the rivalry so important to begin with. And that they don't want any other rivals. Just us.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:21 PM ^
Harbaugh does not insist that every game is equal. Don't know what crevice of your colon you're pulling that from, but it's silly.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:41 PM ^
That's what he says in public. And I'm sure he very much cares about the OSU game. BUT, isn't that kind of tepid public statement exactly the kind of tepid, stay-in-your-shell football we see from M every year when we play OSU?
November 28th, 2018 at 7:05 PM ^
...no?
November 28th, 2018 at 7:37 PM ^
I feel like you haven't watched very many of his media interactions, because your basic premise is super flawed. He has very clearly stated, repeatedly throughout this season, and especially during Game week, that they obviously treat this as a very different game. Seriously, where are you getting this from? A general statement he made three years ago?
November 28th, 2018 at 6:23 PM ^
This doesn't give me satisfaction. Boo hoo they want to be us, I don't see why, we lose to them every year. They're academically on par with MSU so that's irrelevant to me, I don't care about beating them in academics and never will because it's a given. The only relevant comparison is in athletics, it's the only aspect where they actually rival us and are succeeding. Of course, we beat them in other sports, but it's not a secret which one we care most about.
I don't see their rabid, screeching fans making efforts to be like our high-brow, old-fashioned crowd nor do I see their administration and athletic department making efforts to be like us in the realm of ethics. There's nothing co- about our B1G East championship in that department. Yeah, I want to beat Ohio State and still be Michigan in those respects, (I don't buy that those are trade offs in order to win like some here), but I don't see how they want to be like us. Maybe Ramzy keeps writing for 11W because he can't do anything else with his degree.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:39 PM ^
we lose to them every year because they cheat. The Tressel era made that perfectly clear. The win-at-all-costs mentality is encouraged. Chris Spielman made the point that EVERYONE in Ohio is for the buckeyes. That's unique. California is not exclusively for USC, and Alabama isn't exclusively for Alabama. It also proves that the entire state will protect the institution (which has been valued as a $1billion franchise) just as long as they beat Michigan. That's how the Powell police dept will alter arrest documents of a coach on the team who beats his wife. Or how the Columbus police doesn't arrest Carlos Hyde after hitting a woman in public and on security camera. Or how Tresselgate was only limited to free tattoos when everyone in the state knows that the corruption ran far far deeper than what was disclosed.
It's the same mentality that drove Steinbrenner to remove Drew Henson from the equation when he was an odds-on favorite to win the Heisman.
Until Michigan sells its soul will they be on par with O$U. They did. And the clever diary post about the OSU trustees claiming vindication validates that.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:50 PM ^
going back to my comparison of Harbaugh to Tom Osborne, I don't want Harbaugh going down the road that Osborne went, though
November 28th, 2018 at 9:29 PM ^
OK, cool. Hook 'Em.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:33 PM ^
bullshit. osu, as an institution, doesn’t care about anything other than winning football games. coach beats his wife for years - don’t rock the boat. head coach punches an opposing player - revere him. another coach gets caught lying to the ncaa repeatedly - celebrate the man and have his ex-convicts, i mean players, carry him across the field at halftime to a standing ovation. fuck that entire school, just fuck them
November 28th, 2018 at 9:51 PM ^
just keep on putting wins above basic human decency - your school is trash, your fans are trash and your coach is trash
November 30th, 2018 at 3:31 PM ^
they would all agree with what you are saying and not care at all. . .just as long as they win. It's a mentality I will never understand.
November 29th, 2018 at 6:35 PM ^
I don't disagree with any of this. Which then leads me to what should be a better choice for all Michigan fans. FUCK Ohio State. Stop crying about the losses to them every year because we're playing a different game than them.
Stop caring about Ohio State. But some Michigan fans will never be that introspective enough to be able to save themselves the grief.
And the administration won't ever move The Game because they too buy into the great cataclysmic rivalry every year.
We can't have it both ways: Want to beat OSU, but don't want to play their game. Either we do it our way and let them do their way, or we decide to sell our souls and play their game. It's Michigan's choice to make that decision and it always will be.
If you lock yourself into an eternal struggle with an opponent, guess what, you can unlock yourself.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:37 PM ^
Fuck this.
November 28th, 2018 at 6:40 PM ^
Wow, perfect read. I heard my dad always say OSU desperately wants to be Michigan, but I never really knew what he meant or thought it was horse shit. However, now I get it. I live in Ohio but boy with each passing year their hatred grows stronger, and this is after 2 decades of pure dominance. I've always wondered how they always are more prepared, more intense, and more open about the rivalry than Michigan, and it's because it's their world. We have to fight off the Spartans, Irish, Gophers, and Buckeyes; OSU has just us. We are their rival idol, and they offer it their respect in order to never have a let down. It's a recipe for success so long as everyone buys in.