RaisedGoBlue's Thoughts on the DBs
I saw this post on another thread from user RaisedGoBlue, and I asked the user to put it in its own thread as it deserved more attention - and then I realized he did not have 100 MGo points. I would like to ask the moderators to give him 100 as I'd be interested in thoughts separately on LBs and/or DL if he has the time to expand as deeply as he did with the DBs. I know we have a few folks who have coached at a pretty high level but it is interesting to hear from guys who have played D1. I feel position coaching is the most underrated part of football and right now in our program a case can be made we are lacking there in quite a few spots. Which frustates me.
Below are his thoughts copied from another thread:
This blog is awesome and I read it everyday. Thank you much to all those that contribute. I have always decided against posting because discussing topics online can be frustrating. Nevertheless this tickeled me to reply. I played major college football. Started at db and moved to outside lb because i bulked up so much and had "bad hips" ha. I also pass rushed in passing situations. This does not mean i know it all but i do have some knowledge of this game at the collegilate level and an idea of how things operate at a university like Michigan.
To start off on this topic, this falls on Hoke but that's another topic. Simply put these db's are not being coached correctly and are being allowed to get away with poor technique. Very poor. In press coverage, yes the objective is to disrupt the time and rhythm of an offense. Even more importantly, be physical as most receivers hate to be hit and to block.
Lets start with Countless. His technique is very bad and football iq maybe worse. In man converage, you cannot get beat inside. You can't, there is no help and an easier throw for the qb. Even before all this, 3rd and 3-7. as a db you should be thinking slant. Countless obviously wasn't becaue he never even jumped any slant routes. Great db's do this. Yes it's a mind game and don't jump it all the time as you rely on your coverage technique and tackling technique to rip the ball. We were coached to even cheat inside sometimes. You can't get beat inside. Force to sidelines. Countless was beat several times inside and he was being allowed to. No coach got on his behind. He should have been pullled immediately and given a mouthful. At the very least pulled. Another sign on bad coaching from this staff. Allowing a player to play with horrible technique and give up key plays time and time again. I don't know coach manning and I know he wasn't a db but this falls on him if he isn't teaching these db's. Hoke first but GMatt and manning shoulder this too. Again countless is an experienced player and should have the IQ to jump and least one of the slant rount and make a play.
I'd like to see these coaches run some cover 2 as well for these corners but they have to become excellent jammers to do this to give the safety help as he has deep half. The only time a corner should be in press and not jamming is if he has deep thirds and uses "bail" technique.
The dline is poor coached too. I see no pass rush moves from Frank Clark. It's as if he hasn't been taught any. Im not tooting my horn but i was 8th in the conference in sacks my senior year and it was because my dline coach. I had the athleticism and speed, all that but having moves adds another dimension. Franks best move is a bull rush and when he speed rush's he is way too high. Again there are so many things I can touch on but al in all, this coaching staff isn't good. I can tell a team that has been coached well even if they do not have talent.
One example id like to use quickly is our free saftey during my day. He was average at best with athleticism but he was coached well. His technique and football iq were off the charts!. He was ALWAYS in position to make the play even if he didn't make it. He was there. He was trusted, he coudl tell you everyone's responsibilites on defense. I don't see this from anyone on our defense besides Morgan and it's more because of who he is as a player rather than being coached up.
Another quick point. Since our technique is so bad, this is a reason you never see michigan with "coverage sacks". We are never where we are supposed to be. Yes we lack a team full of patrick peterson but give me good technique and we got something. The best thing about being a db in college football is you are allowed to HIT the receiver until the ball is in the air. DB's should be having a field day out there but they aren't coached to play this way. Every receiver should be rerouted and know he's going to be hit. We are simply not coached correctly. Our db's zone turn when they are in man. That should be second nature
This just hit me as I am watching the Colts game. Roby, the former Ohio Db just made the play to end the game. He got off balance a little but he didn't let his man beat him inside in man coverage forcing a tougher throw and had sometime to recover and break on the ball.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:40 AM ^
I am cutting and pasting SpaceCowboy's (edit: Coyote) response here as well:
And agree with much of what you're saying, but here's what I'll say about Cover 1 Press. Leverage depends a lot on the rest of the Cover 1 call, where your help is, and the situation. Golson wasn't just killing Michigan on slants, he was also killing Michigan on quick outs and fades when Michigan started cheating or over-playing their leverage inside. Depending on the split, you simply can't cheat inside on all situations because you give up a free release outside, and Countess doesn't have the strength or quickness to keep up.
I really can't comment on the coaching, because I'm not there in practice. What I saw from the DBs was just getting flat out beat and out-executed though. Countess had a WR outside and even and simply did not have the functional strength to hold him there. Next, he cheats to try to jump it with his body and allows a free release outside. Some of it is technique, because they've only been working on it for one off-season at length, but I think, as far as Countess is concerned, that it really has to do with functional strength and eye-discipline. He's better as a zone player.
Hollowell just isn't athletic enough at this point to handle a slot to the field. He had to play it straight up because of alignment and help, and pressing him would have been a quick death. They played off in an effort to force Golson to do something he is less comfortable with: march down the field in chunks. It also allowed him to play off man and limit run after catch. The hope likely that Kelly, because he tends to do this, would eventually try to attack downfield and bring the FS into play. He didn't budge, he kept running Cover 1 beat after Cover 1 beater and ND simply out executed there. I would have liked to see Michigan give Hollowell some inside help, either with a bracket or a robber, but they also needed to generate some pressure vs a quick passing attack.
I disagree with your assessment of the front though. I saw Clark throw a hell of a spin move after a fake inside rip. I saw Clark get some pressure on the outside. I saw the DTs handle a very good ND interior. I thought the LBs were well schooled. The problem was ND had a quick passing attack and Golson was very accurate all night. The rush couldn't get there because the ball was out of Golson's hand already. If you are getting beat in Cover 1 on the backend, pressure won't get home no matter how much pressure is dialed up, it just won't. And that's what happened. I thoughtt the front 6 looked solid to good against ND again, and I thought the DTs really one with their hand-technique on the inside all night. It's stemming from the backend much more than anything up front.
And as far as switching to a cover 2. Mattison has always been a single-high guy first and foremost. Michigan actually did run a Tampa 2 on a third down and got off the field, but that was about it. But Michigan spent so much time repping Cover 1 and a Cover 3 bail in the offseason to get it to try to get it to a point it needed to be, there is just no way they were going to trot out a cover 2 and run it effectively regularly against a team that was executing like ND. It just wasn't going to happen. You commit to Cover 1 like Michigan did, you live and die by it. Michigan died by it, from a team that simply out executed them on the outside.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:39 AM ^
Alum96 covered it, though I'm a Coyote not a Cowboy, damnit! Though - and I didn't really enjoy the movie that much - if I could be Clint Eastwood or Tommy Lee Jones at that age, I guess I'll take it.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:43 AM ^
Doh. Fixed it. I usually look at avatar's more than names on this blog so yours is easy to identify so I skip the whole "name" thing.
More importantly, it sounds like you 2 are generally in a phase of agreement on the DBs but disagree somewhat on the DL technique, at least when it comes to Clark. Are you seeing technique on the Mario Os, Beyers, Charltons etc? I think our rush defense was fine but the DB and DL work together in pass defense and I dont think Golson got a single grass stain on his jersey Saturday night as the pass rush was pathetic. But I am speaking as a general fan.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:44 AM ^
So no problems either way. I actually get called SpaceCowboy about as much as SpaceCoyote, I assume from people that don't watch The Simpsons.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:50 AM ^
Follow up comments/questions:
People say all Golson did all night was 3 step drop technique which should be useless against true press technique. I see MSU DBs MAUL WRs in their first 3-4 steps. So if we are pressing WRs in a true fashion, Golson should be like "wow no one is where they are supposed to be since UM's DBs are pushing my WRs out of their routes". It is not happening. So he had a very easy day. He barely even had to scramble the entire day because we had no pressure on him.
No DB is going to hold their coverage for 5-6 seconds but that wasn't the issue it seems as we were hit with quick routes all night.
Last question - why dont we do that on OUR offense if our OL is not good at pass protect? Get the ball out of Devin's hands on the 3rd step and keep getting those 6-10 yard routes. It was almost automatic for Golson. That way Devin doesnt absorb hits, our OL issues lessen and we take advantage of other teams not named MSU who dont play press either. Obviously this technique would not work vs MSU but most other teams we should just do what ND does
Last point Brian Kelly is an excellent offensive coach. He finds the weakness in every D. Last year he saw the way to beat MSU was to go over the top on long sideline passes. That is all he did all game even as Rees sucked and missed most of them. He never went away from it the entire game and got a win. Against us he did something completely opposite - and he did it the entire game. We never adjusted. And it worked all night.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:11 PM ^
I think with some of the technique things (and lack of functional strength), I think they were worried about giving clean releases outside, and then it's death by streak, and fade, and out and up, etc. All of which can be done from a 3-step drop.
As for why not in our offense. For one, going up against a different defense. ND mostly played off about 6 yards with help over top and were willing to jump things underneath. They thought (correctly) that they could limit the run game with their box and jump things underneath with help over the top (kind of a guess, but it's what I saw when I could see it with TV and all). On top of that, DG I think struggles with quick reads because he really only identifies things well one at a time. It's a true progression for him, not a look to an area and figure it out quickly. That makes it harder for him.
Golson is a much better deep passer than Rees. And, in the past, Golson's struggles have come on the accuracy needed on underneath throws and throwing them on time. That didn't show up Saturday. When Michigan did make some adjustments, ND did attack a bit over the top. But Kelly is a smart coach, he knows all the "beaters" for any coverage.
September 8th, 2014 at 1:10 PM ^
I posted in the main game thread befor eI read this one. Good Stuff.
Just reading between the lines, you think the reason they didn't try to actually hit the receivers was the coaches feel they are too weak so they get them up close to mirror them but not jam them?
September 8th, 2014 at 2:12 PM ^
But when they weren't successful a several times they tried to make adjustments, correct.
September 8th, 2014 at 2:43 PM ^
Thanks. Fair enough.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:52 AM ^
Can we also then assume that people don't call you Maurice, that you don't speak for the pompatance of love, and that you're neither a joker, a smoker, nor a midnight toker? And that you don't play your music for the sun. And that you're not a picker, a grinner, a lover, or a sinner? And that you don't get your loving on the run?
September 8th, 2014 at 12:05 PM ^
But, you should instead, understand that I have a voice of someone that Walks the Line, fell into a Ring of Fire, and can give you the chills when I talk about Hurt.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:14 PM ^
Wait, I thought in the end you were really nothing more than a talking dog?
September 8th, 2014 at 12:17 PM ^
BARK!
September 8th, 2014 at 2:41 PM ^
Damn straight!
September 8th, 2014 at 12:15 PM ^
you should record some singing football instructional videos to give us even more chills
September 8th, 2014 at 1:04 PM ^
Didn't you shoot a man in Reno - just to watch him die?
September 8th, 2014 at 3:49 PM ^
with no way to hold his head that didn't hurt. I think the game had something to do with that.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:11 PM ^
But certainly not pompatance.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:19 PM ^
I thought some call you the Gangster of Love.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:38 AM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 11:41 AM ^
I'll take a few typos and misspellings.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:45 AM ^
Your parents should have taught you tact.
September 8th, 2014 at 2:40 PM ^
Sorry, im not turning in a paper and proofreading what I type. It's not that serious. If you cant make out what I meant to say with certain words. perhaps you need to learn how to spell.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:40 AM ^
Is that you ?
September 8th, 2014 at 11:40 AM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 11:49 AM ^
Blake Countess, to me at least, was the most disappointing defensive player on Saturday. Hollowell was taken advantage of a bit more but Countess just did not seem to learn at all from his previous mistakes. I still think he is best suited for NB and firmly believe he will be back there within the next 3 or 4 games. My opinion is that Peppers and Taylor are the best fits for the coverage we want to run and think Lewis, too, will be good once he gains some confindence. But I thought Blake would have a big year now that he is back to 100% but he just does not look comfortable in the new look defense. The season is still very young and I certainly will not give up on Blake or this team but Saturday night was an eye opener.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:43 AM ^
Wtb Taylor and Peppers back.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:46 AM ^
If this is true, we're screwed.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:50 AM ^
Has this been a recurring problem under Hoke's tenure, or do you think this is something the coaches will pick up in film and work to correct over the next couple games?
September 8th, 2014 at 3:09 PM ^
You know, i never really watched like i did last Saturday for whatever reason. Many things under Hoke have been inconsistent like, intensity, discpline, improvement week to week etc.
This is something you should be doing in camp. As i stated i can't understand how countless continued to do this and was allowed. I can't understand why he never jumped a slant route or why the coaches never even told him too. I have no clue. it's crazy i know. These things can easly be fixed. Since this is the first time I paid attention to the dbs technique i will have to wait and see until next game. But it wasn't fixed during the game so i can't see why it would be fixed next week. We will see. But it is clear from that game we are terrible at jamming receivers and rerouting them. No receiver should run free, ever. not with the way college rules are.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:58 AM ^
Thank you. Missed this and it was a great discussion.
September 8th, 2014 at 11:59 AM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 3:50 PM ^
I stated, i don't know it all. Never came off arrogant. I am not qualified to give insight just because i played at high level, was an all conference player, played against many NFL Players and those with the caliber to play in the league. What makes me qualified is the coaching I received. That's it. i was fornuate enough to have that. That's what made our defense so good. Yes we had talent but our coaching was out of this world. So when i see things that are done incorrectly, i can speak on that because of what I was taught. Without that coaching, i wouldn't have the little knowledge I do.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:05 PM ^
Great info from RaisedGoBlue. Here's hoping for more posts from him.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:05 PM ^
not sure if he was being funny with the Countless stuff but I enjoyed the read. I dont know what happened Saturday..to not score a point just blows my mind. Is the road that intimidating for these DI players and coaches?
AHHH, I just dont know what to think anymore...I like Hoke, he can recruit with the best of them but whats the point if you cant coach these young men? If this year is another 7-8 win season do we fire him and start over again, can we all handle another transition like that? So many questions...zero answers.
38 to fucking zero, thats how we end this rivalry?!?!
Oh and someone tell Doug N. he has a 6'5 monster out there and to throw the ball down the damn field.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:08 PM ^
I think a lot of that 7-8 wins depends on who we beat. If we go 8-4 with wins over MSU and OSU (as unlikely as that may seem) does Hoke get 2015? I think so.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:11 PM ^
Well these are interesting points that would seem to re-raise some suspicion about Roy Manning being DBs coach.
Given that he's never been a DBs coach before, I'm wondering if he really knows all the finer points of how the DBs should be playing. Maybe he really doesn't know these little - but key- points that should be getting driven into the CBs heads
September 8th, 2014 at 12:19 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 12:20 PM ^
and dumb because we need the B1G to be good but having OSU and MSU lose made me feel better...I know neg away
September 8th, 2014 at 12:20 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 12:21 PM ^
Good post, thanks. I posted something along those exact same lines in one of the other endless plaintive threads.
Really appreciate SpaceCoyoteCowboy's response. He's absolutely right, Golson was fantastic on Saturday night. He is an outstanding college QB. We won't see someone that good besides Cook, and Golson doesn't make mistakes like Cook. We could be fine on D the rest of the way. Seriously this is very possible. And longer term if this is the learning curve for a more aggressive D, I'm Ok with it.
What about jumping up to bat the ball down? Wormley/Godin/Charlton - we've got some big guys. Why not jump into the passing window and knock some balls down against those quick throws?
September 8th, 2014 at 12:22 PM ^
This is truly depressing. I was content to wait until the Oline matured before getting rid of Hoke, but how can the *defensive* coaching be this poor? Mattision is an NFL coordinator. I know he's not a DB coach but can't he see poor technique and call out his assistants when it's happening? If this is all accurate then this staff is done. They'll be fired at the end of the season. You can't expect the D to improve if they are getting incorrect instruction in practice.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:32 PM ^
Being from Michigan and having the Lions as the pro team, we've lived for years with mediocre or rookie/young players have breakout days against Detroit. Someone you've never heard of going off, just because it's the Lions and of course.
Over the last several years, this same thing has happened over and over against our beloved Wolverines. These two twains should never, ever meet; should never be possible in the reality of this plane of existence. CFB is set up so that this should never happen. But when Mayock referred to Carlisle (or Fuller, or whoever it was that was bombing us at that moment) as having a career day, this came home again. This year was supposed to be much better than that.
September 8th, 2014 at 12:53 PM ^
Raised Go Blue (RGB) could be legit but this has many signs of a rival fan trolling the coaches:
1) No posting history. Just created an account to point out the coaches suck
2) Detailed back story about playing D1 ball to establish credibiilty, Detailed storys like this usually turn out to be trolls.
3) SpaceCoyote, when I read his detailed rebuttal he seems to suggest RGB's analysis is wrong in some cases and too much at the 10,000 foot level in other cases and therefore discredits it.
4) I can't imagine these basic CB tactics getting by someone with the many years of pro and college experience of GMatt. Think about it. All the coaches combined have over 100 years of experience in the film room reviewing every game and practice. Are you telling me that basic press coverage skills and tactics never came up once?
Before I give this credit I'd want proof of the posterss credibility or I'd want other coaching experts to weigh in. Hell, he can eat a lemon on camera in his playing jersey for all I care. What's the risk?
That's why you need 100 points to start a thread.
Remember RDT and how everyone was gaga over his recruiting insights. His story: "I'm just a Bama fan down South...I really love reading your board...you have so many great posters...I'm good friends with a lot of High School coaches down here and have a lot of recruiting insights I'd like to share."
Edit;
Oh and then there is #5 the name: "RaisedGoBlue" Haha
If I'm wrong I'll eat a lemon...Just not on camera!
September 8th, 2014 at 1:08 PM ^
Assumin that what RGB is saying, why wouldn't every other school recruiting Jabril just rehash (on film even) everything that RGB wrote? It would be an opposing recruiting coaches dream.
September 8th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 1:47 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 3:53 PM ^
September 8th, 2014 at 4:03 PM ^
Whos RDT?
I'm not looking for crediblity, it isn't that serious to me. I've just always been a Michigan Fan and I enjoy this board mainly for the recruiting updates. I might haven give too much info saying i was 8th in conference in sacks lol. I certainly will tell you my name if you guess and care that bad. No i didn't play for Michigan. I wish i could have. Honestly, i was too lazy and only focused on girls and having abs in high scool. I didn't really work hard until my Junior year in college. I thought i could get by on talent alone and learned the hard way early. I won't speak on things I don't know of because I don't know it all. As stated in another reply, i only have the little knowledge i have because of the coaching I received.