Profiles in Patience

Submitted by caup on

I hope this helps a little bit:

Barry Alvarez

1990 1-10
1991 5-6
1992 5-6
1993 10-1-1 Big Ten Champs (W Rose Bowl vs. UCLA)

Kirk Ferentz

1999 1-10
2000 3-9
2001 7-5
2002 11-2 Big Ten Champs (L Orange Bowl vs. USC)

I know people may say "It shouldn't take that long because we are MICHIGAN!" My response to them would be:

1. I think the change in systems that resulted in unsuitable personnel and mass attrition more than offset Michigan's relative advantage in recruiting potential.

2. How about we stop being so arrogant and just give this guy 4 years? Two recent examples indicate we should do just that.

tdumich

November 25th, 2009 at 12:11 PM ^

it's much more aligned with kirk's third year than barry's third year. i agree with you that year four is when things should really start to click. just get me to a bowl game next year!

Bando Calrissian

November 25th, 2009 at 12:17 PM ^

Both programs were coming off of lengthy stretches of mediocrity. Wisconsin was a doormat in the Big 10 the latter half of the 80's. They won like 10 games over the course of 5 seasons. Iowa had been middling into mediocrity for a few years going into Hayden Fry's last season, when they won 3 games, and Iowa forced him out accordingly.

I really don't see how comparing Michigan to both of these situations is fair or accurate. We were 9-4, coming off of a bowl win, had played in 3 Rose Bowls in 5 years, were 3 points away from a BCS championship game in 2006, new years day bowl games 11 out of 12 years... We weren't Iowa or Wisconsin prior to Ferentz or Alvarez.

MCalibur

November 25th, 2009 at 12:36 PM ^

These are fair points but Michigan was also coming off of a five to seven year stretch of under performing. The same team that beat Florida in the Citrus bowl lost to Appalachian State in week 1 then got destroyed by Oregon in week 2. Add on uncompetetiveness against equal competition (Bowl games and OSU) and it's clear that while the Michgan brand was intact, the way the program was going about it's business needed to be significantly changed. I'm not big on the Lloyd bashing either but the symptoms we've observed over the course of the Tressel era need to be reconciled.

Based on the information at hand, we can just as easily conclude that the program was too soft as much as we can conclude that RichRod is too hard. It's probably equal parts (ish) of both. The complaints of 'family values' and 'over working' and 'business atmoshpere' ring of a soft culture.

Whatever happens to RichRod I hope the transformation continues.

JamesBondHerpesMeds

November 25th, 2009 at 12:20 PM ^

(Preface: I'm a huge RR fan and think he should get infinity years here, but also an engineer and natural-born critic of presented evidence. Marginal credentials aside...)

The seasons prior to Alvarez's first year at Wisco, they went 9-36 under two coaches in the previous four seasons and hadn't been to a bowl since 1984.

Iowa, on the other hand, had posted winning records in all but two of the previous ten seasons, one of which (1998) served as Hayden Fry's curtain call and could almost be counted as irrelevant.

If anything, I'd rely more on evaluating the boobirds out of the Iowa camp during that time.

edit: Apparently, three other people were typing up this exact same response at the exact same time. Neg me!

caup

November 25th, 2009 at 12:29 PM ^

But I really think the recruitng shortfalls and massive attrition were devastating to our program.
Isn't it reasonable to assume that ground zero at Michigan in the Spring of 2008 probably didn't look much different than the Springs of 1990 in Madison or 1999 in Iowa City?
I prefer to think so, which gives RR the benefit of the doubt.

jonny_GoBlue

November 25th, 2009 at 1:42 PM ^

The players, recruits, and most importantly Rich Rod's bosses are all showing him plenty of patience.

As long as those 3 groups are still in his camp I don't give a damn what the general fanbase and media think.

maizedNblued

November 25th, 2009 at 1:48 PM ^

Notre Dame

Holtz
89: 12-1
90: 9-3
91: 10-3
92: 10-1-1
93: 11-1
94: 6-5-1
95: 9-3
96: 8-3

Davie
97: 7-6
98: 9-3
99: 5-7
00: 9-3
01: 5-6

Willingham
02: 10-3
03: 5-7
04: 6-5

Weis
05: 9-3
06: 10-3
07: 3-9
08: 7-6
09: 6-5

Nebraska

Osbourne
91: 9-2-1
92: 9-3
93: 11-1
94: 13-0
95: 12-0
96: 11-2
97: 12-0

Solich
98: 9-4
99: 12-1
00: 10-2
01: 11-2
02: 7-7
03: 9-3

Callahan
04: 5-6
05: 8-4
06: 9-5
07: 5-7

Pellini
08: 9-4

I would compare Nebraska and Notre Dame, both dominant programs back in the day, to Michigan when RR took over. Nebraska and Notre Dame fans clamored and complained that they deserved better and needed change and look where it got them (steady decline with very few sprinkled in decent years) Neither program is anywhere near where they used to be...I'm rooting for RR more than anyone but I worry that we got away from our roots and forgot how we got to the top of the mountain. It makes me appreciate Penn State for sticking it out with JoePa...

caup

November 25th, 2009 at 2:00 PM ^

and raise with Texas, Oregon, and Cincinnati (i.e. programs that shifted to spread offenses and are currently crazy good).

The Moral of the Post: There are many precedents to choose from. I chose to highlight a couple that might counteract the depression of this disappointing season. That's all. I'm definitely aware that someone can shoot holes in my premise if that is their goal.

maizedNblued

November 25th, 2009 at 2:52 PM ^

....only want our ultimate goal to be us celebrating numerous B-10 championships and an occasional shot at a NC...that is all. My intention was not to try and shoot down your theory at all. I just believe that if we're going to use a sample study, I think Notre Dame and Nebraska were more close in distinction than Iowa and Wisconsin. I want the same things that you, RR and every other UM fan wants. My only concern is that we've taken to many steps backwards in order to attain greatness.

Always Go Blue!

P.S. I'll give you Texas and possibly Oregon (although Oregon hasn't reached a Championship caliber level)..but I stand firm on anyone thinking that Cincinnati is a national power. Many teams are capable of having a solid year every now and then, i.e. Kansas, Missouri, Louisville, South Florida, Maryland, Wake Forest, Rutgers, Ole Miss, Virginia, Arizona, Arizona St. etc. but it's the sustainability and consistency year in and year out that makes me a true believer.

MCalibur

November 25th, 2009 at 5:45 PM ^

Let’s not forget Florida fellas.

Our offensive scheme is not the problem now; nor was it the problem under Lloyd. I believe what I’ve heard/read coaches say about scheme, it doesn’t matter. What matters is having adequate talent to execute it properly and then doing so. I’ve heard a lot of people say that the spread won’t work in the Big 10 but I’ve never heard a decent argument as to why. It’s always some mumbo jumbo about the weather or distance from the mason-dixon line. Doesn’t that seem a little silly? Maybe the reason why the spread has not yet thrived in this conference is because of inadequate coaching and/or an inability to assemble adequate talent to gain a sustainable competitive advantage over Michigan, Ohio State, or Penn State. Oh wait, what system is Penn State running again?

The most important change that RR brought wasn’t in terms of scheme, it was it terms of how Michigan goes about it’s bidness. Sure, there were other coaches they may have been able to do that except that none of them were offered or accepted the position. The best qualified and available coach was hired instead. Either that or Bill Martin is a moron; your choice. I'm not sure, but I think Occam's Razor applies here. Also, how's it working out for Miles and Schiano right now? Mayhaps we dodged a bullet?

goMichblue

November 25th, 2009 at 4:20 PM ^

The truth is nobody know's if RR will go the way of Notre Dame and Nebraska or the way of Texas/Oregon/Cinci; bottom line is I think that he gives us a great chance in the short future and the administration is behind him.

Though our record this year is only a two game improvement, on the field they were much more competitive (OSU/Iowa/MSU/Notre Dame). I think next year will see some similar gains in competency. I think that our biggest xfactor obviously is how the defense improves as the offense is already moving along.

If we can see some players who match the defensive scheme develop (like roundtree and vincent smith did for the offense) we'll see a much better overall team. My personal favorite development this year has to be the way Stevie Brown played the hybrid LB spot considering the trash he took from fans last year, too bad he's a senior.