Pitching

Submitted by Jay on July 2nd, 2008 at 3:32 PM

The Minnesota Twins. I hate them.

Terrible home field.

Crappy fanbase.

They trade or lose all of their big name players to free agency.

No payroll, yet, they keep winning.

Time for Dombrowski to trade for Eric Bedard. Eddie Bonine is done.

Comments

MRG

July 2nd, 2008 at 3:54 PM ^

...as a professional chin strap stylist.

Actually, I think he's like Plan C.  There was contact between the Tigers and his agent, but he's only going to get signed if the Mud Hen Boyz poop.

Jay

July 2nd, 2008 at 4:02 PM ^

Garcia probably won't be ready to pitch until late July. You really have to wonder just how much he has left. He lost so much velocity off of his fastball the last couple of years before his injury. It would be interesting if he could still be even mildly effective at eating some innings up for a contending team.

Jim Harbaugh S…

July 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 PM ^

Jay - you rule. I share your hatred of the Twins. I looked at their roster before the season started and said "This is the worst team in the division, they have no pitching, washed-up rubber-arm Livan Herndanez, and the Royals are gonna be better than them." Somehow, someway the Twins are winning, and I for one can't stand it. Another strike against the Twins is that Gardenhire is a fat little chode of a manager, I can't stand that butterball.

big gay heart

July 2nd, 2008 at 6:20 PM ^

Garcia is like at 70% right now. I mean, he could pitch convcievably as early as late July/early August, but I don't think he'll be any good. The only Tiger that performs consistently well at the Metrodome is Maggalio and both he and his his hair are obviously on the DL. And fuck Craig Monroe. He's a belt-stealing asshole who cannot, literally, hit against anyone other than the Tigers.

Jim Harbaugh S…

July 2nd, 2008 at 6:25 PM ^

Speaking of Craig Monroe - I had a choice of a Monroe or a Shelton jersey-shirt for 4 bucks - I went with the Shelton. But more on topic there are a lot of what I like to call "Tiger killers" - these are players who are merely average to good but live to beat the Tigers. Monroe is one of these guys, the best example I can think of is Joe Crede - decent player but dude owns the tigers. Eckstein is another marginal talent who for whatever reason owned the tigers in the 06 Series. Anyone else got any other examples of Tiger Killers?

chitownblue (not verified)

July 2nd, 2008 at 7:35 PM ^

Jay, I say this in all seriousness: If you don't keep up posting your Tigers thoughts, I'll be sad. I frequently disagree, but your level of contempt for it all makes me laugh. Hard. It's admirable. I mean this as a complement. FWIW, what about Porcello for CC? The Tigers are willing to spend money - so they could throw mad cash at him, right?

chitownblue (not verified)

July 2nd, 2008 at 7:48 PM ^

Would you rather have CC, or have a guy that has a 15% chance of being as good as CC in 4 years? TINSTAAPP.

By the way, the Twins shit out above average young pitchers.

chitownblue (not verified)

July 2nd, 2008 at 7:56 PM ^

Speaking of which did you know that Darin Erstad WAS A FOOTBALL PLAYER?

mjv

July 3rd, 2008 at 12:13 AM ^

DD is giving away too much young talent for guys who have already peaked (D Willis?). Porcello has a really high ceiling. The problem this team has is that it is relying on guys like Roberson and Rogers who are clearly 4/5 spots in the rotation. They traded the young lefty from UNC (name escapes me) and don't seem to have anywhere near the farm system depth they had two years ago. If the Yankees have taught me anything the last few years, trying to buy a contender is not the right approach, and they aren't wiing World Series with a payroll that is roughly double the Tigers. That is a game that Detroit can't afford to play in. Develop the young arms and follow them into the playoffs.

chitownblue (not verified)

July 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 AM ^

In all fairness, saying that he gave up young talent for Dontrelle Willis is really misleading. He got a 25 year-old future hall of famer in Cabrera as well. The problem, messy baby, is that Porcello is the only blue-chip talent they have. This team is built to win now. To that extent, they are, IMO, better off trading Porcello to get a good pitcher today. As I said, would you rather have Sabathia, who's awesome, or Porcello, who has, probably a 30% chance of being as good as CC 5 years from now?

mjv

July 3rd, 2008 at 10:38 AM ^

I originally thought that the entire trade was for Cabrera, but when they went and signed D-Train to a big money contract, it indicated that he was an integral part of that trade. In all honesty, how many quality years does CC have left in the tank? That would be critical to my analysis of a potential deal. But I'm very apprehensive in trading for now with a team that is fundamentally flawed. The pitching staff has five question marks in the starting rotation. Fixing one question mark for a couple of years by trading away a future top of the rotation guy doesn't get you to the playoffs this season. The Tigers have been playing lights out for four weeks and they are still seven back. I'm not certain that they can repair all of the damage they did early on, even with CC in the rotation.

chitownblue (not verified)

July 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 AM ^

I think our fundamental disagreement is that in my opinion, due to his youth and the frequency of pitcher injury, Porcello is inherently a question mark. That's the nature of pitching prospects. Not only that, he is a question mark in a bleak future. Sheffield, Pudge, Maggs, Guillen, Renteria, Polanco, Rogers, Jones and Robertson will be gone or useless within 3 years.

formerlyanonymous

July 3rd, 2008 at 11:00 AM ^

As a non-Tiger fan, well at least not an exclusive Tiger fan, I can't see how in a million years one AL Central team would trade a top pitcher to another AL Central team no matter what the standings look like. There was a reason the Scott Kazmir to the Yankees talk was shot down 2 years ago. Despite the Rays being 20+ games behind in July, they were never going to give their best pitcher to a division rival.

mjv

July 3rd, 2008 at 11:12 AM ^

F. Anon -- good point. The bigger question is trading away a future prospect for current known commodity. I look at where the Yankees are now. A team spending money no one else can match, but they are in serious jeopardy of making the playoffs. The Tigers can't play the spend for now game like the Yankees, and no one should believe that trading away the future is going to have better resutls in Detroit than in NYC. I'm particularly less interested in trading away the future with so much going away in the near future. The Tigers will need to start filling that looming talent gap.

formerlyanonymous

July 3rd, 2008 at 11:19 AM ^

the astros did a bit of the same at the beginning of the decade. we had one of the deepest farm systems, were on the verge of making the series a few times in a row, made the trades to try and win it (beltran, etc)... lost to the white sox during their monster year. We've been pretty lost since then. Luckily houston has had a string of career players the last few generations. Bagwell/Biggio have transitioned to Berkman (and god I hope Oswalt). Our farm system is just starting to rebuild which makes the Astros so weak at some key positions, particularly pitching and middle infield.

big gay heart

July 3rd, 2008 at 11:20 AM ^

CC Sabathia is like 27 years old. He may be fat, but he's got a lot of miles left in that belly and in those child-bearing hips. I think if the Tigers can trade Porcello straight up for Sabathia, they do it. Conditionally speaking, I think the Tigers have to be within 4 games of the division at the trade deadline AND be committed to re-signing Sabathia for this deal to make any sense But that is totally unrealistic unless the Indians panic, something I can't foresee happening. Obviously, trading an unproven commodity for a proven commodity is always a good bet for success. I still think the Cabrera deal will even out for the Tigers in the long run. But, as things stand currently, the farm has a dearth of quality, hard-throwing starters. In the recent draft, the Tigers took a lot of pitchers, but they were primarily relief pitchers. So, there's no doubt that Porcello has a ton of value to the organization.

big gay heart

July 3rd, 2008 at 11:31 AM ^

"Not only that, he is a question mark in a bleak future. Sheffield, Pudge, Maggs, Guillen, Renteria, Polanco, Rogers, Jones and Robertson will be gone or useless within 3 years."

I agree with the majority of this list, but Polanco and Maggs should still be decent to good players in a couple years. The future isn't altogether bleak - Cabrera, Granderson, and Verlander form a solid core to build around. I like the development of Dolsi and Galarraga [despite the fact they're both 26] and I have hopes that Zumaya's career and health may be settling in. Bonderman is still a giant question mark.

The farm has some decent field talent, especially guys like Iorg and Worth at SS and 3rd [however that shakes out]. I think, also, that either Joyce or Thomas will emerge as a day-to-day MLB player.

Keep in mind also that a ton of money comes off the books after this year. They will be able to spend on the market. But, I do agree with your main point: there is a potentiality that this recent "semi-success" could come crumbling down. I think we've got to see smart draft choices, good player development, and targeted spending on the open market. I think the bullpen, after this draft, is in good hands, but I'm concerned about left-handed starting pitching. To me, that has to be a FA priority for DD.

chitownblue (not verified)

July 3rd, 2008 at 12:35 PM ^

I think Verlander and Bonderman will be pitchers worth having for the forseeable future. The Tigers drafted a bunch hard, hard, throwing dudes this year. For what it's worth, Ryan Perry is predicted to be a starter. Baseball Prospectus summarized the rest of their draft as follows: 2. Cody Satterwhite, RHP, Mississippi: Guess what? He’s big , and he throws hard. 3. Scott Green, RHP, Kentucky: He's even bigger (6'8"), and throws hard. 4. Brett Jacobsen, RHP, Vanderbilt: Six-foot-six, has velocity, see a trend yet? 5. Alex Avila, C, Alabama: A decent college catcher with solid tools across the board. 6. Tyler Stohr, RHP, North Florida: I guess once they got to the sixth round, 6'2" with a good fastball seemed like enough

Jay

July 3rd, 2008 at 1:17 PM ^

Chitown,

If Cleveland would give up Sabathia for Porcello and, say, Matt Joyce, I'd do it in a frickin' heartbeat. While Porcello might one day be the next Josh Beckett, the thought of having a one-two punch like Verlander and CC anchoring your rotation with Manderbon as the third starter over the next few years is just too tantalizing a thought of passing up on. Sabathia will only be 28 this July the 21st, so, DD should be more than comfortable in signing him to a 5 year deal in the neighborhood of $75 million, especially considering the money he seems to have flushed down the toilet for guys like Willis and Robertson. The question is, do the Tribe have the clock weights deal him within their own division?

Jay

July 3rd, 2008 at 1:19 PM ^

I wonder what it would take to get AJ Burnett away from Toronto. They are rumored to be shopping him. The other option would be Eric Bedard from the Mariners. I wouldn't mind either of those guys, but, I wouldn't be willing to trade Porcello for either of them.

hat

July 3rd, 2008 at 1:39 PM ^

(I didn't see this thread before I started my own.) I can't stand the Twins. I've hated them ever since '87 when they unjustly got homefield advantage despite having a far worse regular-season record, and then beat the Tigers. And for some insane reason, the Tigers always suck against them. The Twins won a bunch of division titles this decade just by going like 17-3 against the Tigers and .500 against everybody else. And now that's still happening. Ugh.

big gay heart

July 3rd, 2008 at 1:44 PM ^

Jay: CC was saying he wanted "Santana" money, so 75 mil @ 5 years ins't going to cut it, imo. And, do we need two overweight superstars? Plus, I can't see Cleveland moving him in the division. Mostly because they are so cheap that moving their ace within the division is most liekly just going to mean that they'll be forced to spend money down the road to stay competitive. Chitown, I wasn't aware that Perry was slated as a starter. I know he struggled in college as a starter buit was lights out as a reliever. I hear he was near-MLB ready as a reliever. However, I'd support them taking a long hard look at him as a starter.

chitownblue (not verified)

July 3rd, 2008 at 1:56 PM ^

BGH, I think everyone agrees that Perry is MLB ready as a reliever. I guess it's just a question of long term value (starting) vs. short-term expediency (relieving, as an average starter is more valuable than all but the very best relievers).

MRG

July 3rd, 2008 at 2:27 PM ^

Putkonen as been good at Oneonta. I really liked Furbush until he got hurt. Hamilton has a live arm and no control. Crosby's also hurt. They've got a lot of high potential starters, but no real on the field results to back it up.