OT: Why was Raven's Coach John Harbaugh Upset with Patriot's Off-Balanced Line?
In yesterday's AFC divisional playoff game the Patriots used an unbalanced line where they lined up an eligible receiver where the left tackle would ordinarily be and an ineligible receiver was split out right. John Harbaugh was pissed that his team wasn't allowed to identify the eligible receivers...
“We wanted an opportunity to be able to ID who the eligible players were, because what they were doing was, they would announce the eligible player, and then time was taken, and they would go over and snap the ball before we even had a chance to figure out who was lined up where. And that was the deception part of it. That was clearly deception.”
I'm not familiar with the "announcement" rule he's talking about. Occasionally I've heard officials announce a player is an eligible receiver but don't know why they do it. Doesn't the formation dictate the eligible receivers? Isn't it the defence's responsibility to identify them? I know the NFL has rules about who can wear what numbers; is this what the announcement is for? Does college have the same rules?
I think it's facinating when a team figures out new ways to take advantage of the rules, especially in the NFL. Of course, New England has been known to work outside of the rule book from time-to-time. What was going on here?
January 11th, 2015 at 10:23 AM ^
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January 11th, 2015 at 10:31 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 10:34 AM ^
They followed the rules. The ref's dont have to allow the ravens to line up. #34 ID'd himself to the defense as inelegable. They defense for whatever reasons never lined up correctly. No one cheated it's called knowing the rule book and maximizing your opportunities.
January 11th, 2015 at 11:50 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 11:51 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 11:56 AM ^
It's on the refs, not the Patriots to let the Ravens know about the ineligible player coming out of the huddle.
January 11th, 2015 at 12:53 PM ^
Brady/Patriots followed the letter of the rules but not the spirit.
Their goal was to create mass confusion with the refs and the defense so that the defense would not know who was an eligible receiver. The spirit of the rules is that the defense should know who is an eligible receiver.
It's on the refs to give the defense enough time to figure out who is an eligible receiver (similar to personnel changes), but the Patriots were playing hurry-up to prevent that. So while it was technically the referees' mistake, the Patriots were trying to create that mistake.
When teams playing Michigan have ineligible receivers downfield, we get frustrated on this blog. This is part of the same set of rules and Brady/Patriots were clearly trying find a loophole around.
Personally, I'm really disappointed in Brady. He’s one of our most salient alumni in the NFL and what he was doing was going against Michigan’s values.
January 11th, 2015 at 1:05 PM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 1:10 PM ^
"The Ravens should have called a timeout if they didn't align correctly"
You beat me to it. agree 100%.
January 11th, 2015 at 1:16 PM ^
Similar to Rule 5, Article 9:
January 11th, 2015 at 1:29 PM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 1:32 PM ^
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January 11th, 2015 at 1:34 PM ^
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January 11th, 2015 at 1:09 PM ^
"Personally, I'm really disappointed in Brady. He’s one of our most salient alumni in the NFL and what he was doing was going against Michigan’s values."
Get out of here with this. The guy is going to do everything he can do to win because its his job. If the NFL turns and changes the rules on this then fine they shouldn't do it anymore but right now its fair game and anyone can/will do it to them if they think it gives an advantage.
This is no different than how the Pats corners used to manhandle receivers within the 5 yards until the holding/hands to the face rules were implemented.
The Ravens are upset because the refs didn't hold the offense until the Ravens ID'd everyone. The Pats and the refs did exactly what they are supposed to do and the Ravens didn't react in time.
This would be like saying a team that hurries up and runs a play after one that the other team might review is cheating. Should the refs stop the game and as both coaches if they want to review after every play? No that would be silly.
The Ravens had their chance to respond to the Pats substitution and knew who was ineligible. If they didn't feel they were prepared they should have called a timeout.
January 11th, 2015 at 1:19 PM ^
There is a rule that says that if there is a personnel change after the huddle, that the referees should be given adequate time to re-align. This is very similar to a personnel change.
I don't think we we should sit on our high horse here at Michigan about how we don't play dirty or whatever and then come out and say that winning is winning when it's one of our guys doing it.
January 11th, 2015 at 2:15 PM ^
First of all, no it is not the same thing. If it was then it would be illegal. What New England did is perfectly legal and is done all the time, just not the extent that New England did it. After last night maybe more teams will look into it and then defenses will adjust. This is kind of like saying that the Dolphins cheated to beat New England a few years ago when they busted out the wildcat and the Patriots couldn't match up right because they hadn't seen it.
Second of all, if the Ravens defense couldn't recognize that the guy split out wide wasn't eligible then I don't feel too sorry for them. Watching live I thought the guy was lining up wrong and kept wondering why the defense was covering him when he wasn't eligible. I only noticed it a few times, but if it kept happening then shame on Baltimore for continuing to fall for it.
January 11th, 2015 at 1:55 PM ^
For what? Belichek was the one behind the whole formation and play. If you're going to blame someone, blame the coach. Or the NFL for writing the rules the made this possible.
January 11th, 2015 at 3:18 PM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 4:52 PM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 2:07 PM ^
You are wrong on one point...the ref did inform the Ravens that he was ineligble.
#1 The replay clearly showed the ref telling the defense that Vereen was ineligble. Harbaugh admitted that the ref informed the defense that he was ineligble - John wanted more time for his defense to react to it. John wanted time for his defense to be able to figure out who was elgible and how to align to it.
#2 You can visually tell who is eligble and ineligble based on the formation, who is on the line, who is covered, etc...
#3 There was literally an announcement in the stadium - and I think the announcers also reported the announcement live too.
January 11th, 2015 at 3:18 PM ^
I didn't say he didn't tell the Ravens. Just that Harbaugh said he didn't get enough time before the play started
January 11th, 2015 at 10:38 AM ^
What the Patriots did is kinda the exact opposite of this quote.
Harbaugh admitted he'd never seent that formation before, but he never said it was illegal. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can't run a formation with a RB as an ineligible receiver on the line. Just because nobody had done it before doesn't invalidate it, and the fact that Harbaugh and the Ravens didn't adjust well is the exact purpose of the play, and to win football games.
I'm sure Jim Harbaugh watched that game, laughed at the absurd effectiveness of it, and will think about incorporating it into his offense. And I'm sure John Harbaugh will do the same.
January 11th, 2015 at 11:59 AM ^
concerning this issue. It is unfair to the defense. The same logic of requiring a tackle eligible announcement should apply to a RB ineligible.
January 11th, 2015 at 12:06 PM ^
Absoultely I expect there to be a rule change, but as Brady said in an interview after the game, all they did was read the rulebook and play within it.
January 11th, 2015 at 2:18 PM ^
I guess I don't understand what you mean. He did go over and report as being ineligible. Do you mean the refs will be required to announce it? Personally, I've always found it to be dumb that they announce it, but I understand why it's there.
January 11th, 2015 at 10:28 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 10:34 AM ^
Obviously not illegal, but maybe it should be, and at least it's a very cheap tactic that the Patriots only went to when down 14 points in the second half.
When six people line up looking like receivers, the defense needs to identify who is ineligible. The offense has to notify the refs, but not the other team. So they just quickly tell the refs then snap it, and the defense has no chance to figure out who they are not supposed to cover. That's not really being good at football -- it's a cheap, cheeky move and I understand why he's upset. They should probably do something about this if it keeps being exploited like this.
January 11th, 2015 at 10:37 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 11:52 AM ^
not the doing it part, but the notification part. The Pats are not to blame as they took advantage of (what is essentially) a loophole. But it does create an unfair advantage IMHO when the defense has no opportunity to identify the eligible receivers--as opposed to the Ravens incorrectly identifying them. Like fumbling forward, I expect this rule to be tweaked.
January 11th, 2015 at 10:43 AM ^
See, to me, that is the definition of being good at football. They figured out a way to move the ball against Baltimore effectively and kept doing it. And frankly, after the first 2-3 times it was called you would have expected the Ravens to compensate.
Regardless, it feels like sour grapes from a guy whose team blew two 14-point leads in the game.
January 11th, 2015 at 12:13 PM ^
Deception is an integral part of the game of football. With defenses as good as they are, a good OC will come up with schemes that the other team has not seen before.
Maybe the rule should be changed, but until it is, use it for all it's worth.
January 11th, 2015 at 12:39 PM ^
They only did it three times, according to Belichick. I'm not sure what happened on those plays, and ESPN is no help in telling me. Unfortunately, I didn't record the game, so I can't go back and look for myself.
Baltimore actually adjusted pretty quickly, and the Pats stopped doing it.
January 11th, 2015 at 3:08 PM ^
What Harbaugh did was take a penality by running onto the field and started yelling at the refs that the Pats weren't letting his team ID the ineligible receiver, and then the Pats scored and they went away from the play. I'm not sure the Ravens really compensated as the Patriots just stopped running the play because it was absolutely a gimmick one that they only pulled out on a drive.
That's what I don't understand about Harbaugh complaining - it was a couple of plays that his defense didn't respond to, but the Pats still marched down the field two more times to score and win the game. To argue this somehow violated the spirit of the game or was "deceptive" shifts the blame from his team not being able to stop the Patriots in that second half.
January 11th, 2015 at 5:26 PM ^
a penalty was called on him when Bryant was able to run onto the field without his penalty to argue the call against the Lions.
January 11th, 2015 at 10:52 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 10:57 AM ^
Of course, and if such a play works because it's well designed, and takes advantage of your atheletes and clever routes or blocking schemes that's great.
One of the things I love about sports is that they represent an inherent spirit of fairness.
To me, a play like this works because it is deceptive, because it creates a situation which is basically unfair and which was not really forseen by those who made the rules. It's deceptive in a way that exploits the rules and to me, violates the spirit of a sporting competition. I'd be surprised if this isn't addressed in the rules this offseason.
January 11th, 2015 at 11:12 AM ^
What the Pats did isn't all that revolutionary is it? It's like a normal offense version of the swinging gate. What's Belichek supposed to say here? "Sorry we didn't do exactly what you expected and made your defense think on the fly. Our bad. Back to wishbone!"
January 11th, 2015 at 11:41 AM ^
That's Pop Warner stuff.
This is akin to the British complaining that the American troops didn't line up in rank and file across from their armies and have a stupid, glorified mass duel to the death, instead favoring "unicivilized" guerilla tactics. You play to win the game, and this wasn't even a rules violation.
January 11th, 2015 at 12:00 PM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 11:15 AM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 12:18 PM ^
I am in such agreement with you guys here. This complaint from Harbaugh does sound like sour grapes. It was not illegal, it was a great move on the Pats part. It still amazes me that brand new formations and schemes can still pop up in football. Sorry John, I really like you as a coach, but innovation jumped up and bit you.
And how did the Ravens miss this? Don't they have the printers on the sideline that print off formations and such? Why couldn't they adjust to this? The defense doesn't have to notify the officials who is blitzing and who is dropping into coverage, thats for the O to figure out. I'm just surprised that it kept working, and that the Ravens D refused to adjust.
January 11th, 2015 at 12:47 PM ^
According to Belichick, they only did it three times. The Ravens did adjust, and Harbaugh's stopping the game by walking onto the field to complain to the refs about how they were handling it was part of that.
January 11th, 2015 at 11:31 AM ^
Trick plays to take advantage of the rules and gain an advantage over your opponent have been a part of football forever. Belichick is probably better than anyone at coming up with plays that take advantage of the rules. That makes him a great coach and every coach in America, assuming this could be done in college, etc. now has work to do in order to combat this.
Maybe the no huddle offense should be against the rules because it give the offense an advantage.
January 11th, 2015 at 1:59 PM ^
January 11th, 2015 at 2:13 PM ^
Trying to compare what the Pats did with formations with the Edelman play is ridiculously dumb. One deals with presnap alignment and snapping the ball, the other with a play being run.
The NFL got rid of putting 12-14 guys in the huddle and rushing 1-3 off the field right before a quick snap to deceive the defense. That's a far cry from banning misdirection runs, play action passes, or flea flickers.
This is about presnap alignment and recognition. Keep it there.
January 11th, 2015 at 2:47 PM ^
however they are deceptive and give the offense an advantage. If there is a ridiculous argument, it's yours.
January 11th, 2015 at 11:39 AM ^
But Dammit man, this is a Michigan blog, and Tom Brady is a Michigan Man! We don't engage in discourse better suited to Raider or Jet fan.
Ask 1st what would Jim Harbaugh do, worry about John Harbaugh after, I say!
January 11th, 2015 at 1:13 PM ^
The refs tell the defense who is/is not eligible after the substitution. Its up to the defense to react and align. If an offense can get set before the defense can react then that's just good discipline on their part.