OT: Tesla Model 3
Given that the Big 3 operate in the backyard of Ann Arbor, I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts around Tesla. Do you currently have one? Did you place a reservation for the 3? How do you see the Electric Car market in the future?
Growing up in a GM family (in Michigan), there doesn't seem to be any thought from many of them around Tesla. Living in Chicago, there seems to be a lot of buzz. What say you engineering folks?
Yes, I am aware that username does not check out.
August 1st, 2017 at 10:43 AM ^
You're just wrong. 100% completely wrong.
An internal combustion engine converts fuel into energy at an efficiency of about 20%. A coal fired power plant is twice that efficiency. Nevermind the energy cost of refining gasolione enough to fuel an ICE.
The internal combustion engine is a terrible way to power vehicles, in terms of energy efficiency.
August 1st, 2017 at 10:54 AM ^
Modern ICE engines are much closer to 40% thermal efficiency thanks to turbocharging and supercharging and EGR, etc. Diesels were there or better but the emissions get tricky (obviously).
If they weren't a good way to power vehicles, why are they so ubiquitous?
August 1st, 2017 at 12:08 PM ^
August 1st, 2017 at 12:12 PM ^
Volkswagon figured out the emissions trick...
August 1st, 2017 at 11:18 AM ^
August 1st, 2017 at 12:08 PM ^
Why instantly false?
Monopoly utilities would like you to believe that, but actually not true. Distributed generation and storage is perfectly efficient and literally empowers the individual. It's as conservative a notion as one can imagine and polls at 85% plus for a reason.
Rather than hanging on to their dinosaur mentality and trying to kill distributed generation, they should be 100% hard-core backing EV's thus stealing economic might from the oil sector. Deep penetration of EV's and renewables will require plenty of grid investment; they can continue to make money from that.
EDIT: posts were removed so this is now placed out-of-context.
Energy could easily come from renewable resources, but in the US, it largely doesn't. 70% of the energy produced in the US comes from burning fossil fuels. In addition, we lose 10-15% of the electricity produced in the distribution network.
I am not saying there is not a place for electricifed vehicles, because clearly there is, especially in urban environments. However, if you drive your vehicle long distances like I do, a more practical solution is plug-in hybrids.
Longer-term, unless there is a breakthrough in battery storage technology, I believe the solution will be hydrogen fuel cells, which carry the source of energy on the vehicle.
It's more complicated than applying the 70%, but whatever.
Please don't put words in my mouth and then call them "dumb." I just said there is a place for electric vehicles, but with today's technology they are neither as clean as some people think they are, nor do they work for everyone due to range limitations and time to recharge.
I'm not betting on or against battery technology. A full electric vehicle does not work for me today.
August 1st, 2017 at 10:28 AM ^
Hydrogen storage/refueling infrastructure = pretty big obstacle.
August 1st, 2017 at 12:11 PM ^
August 1st, 2017 at 10:48 AM ^
But the fact is, right now it mostly does not. Therefore, the guy's argument is in fact not old and dumb, it's actually a fact--today. If that future arrives quickly then his argument will be old and dumb
Here's a map from the Union of Concerned Scientists that shows how an electric vehicle's effective emmisions (derived from the local power grid) compare to a gasoline powered vehicle in MPG:
http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/images/2015/08/vehicles-m-ev-…
In a lot of the US it's very high (>60 mpg), but unfortunately Michigan, which currently has a lot of coal generation, is only in the 40 mpg range.
August 1st, 2017 at 10:00 AM ^
August 1st, 2017 at 10:42 AM ^
I don't understand why this was downvoted. Entirely accurate. Tesla wants to put old batteries to use in the home also.
August 1st, 2017 at 11:09 AM ^
Solar panels create 300x more toxic sludge waste compared to the same amount of energy created as nuclear. It's just marketed as a green technology.
August 1st, 2017 at 11:27 AM ^
Teslas are everywhere. You'll see both Model S and to a lesser extent Model X's daily. I know a few people with solar panels and the Tesla Wall Battery at their houses. That eliminates your "circle jerk" issue. If you didn't have a storage battery, the incentive for solar drops considerably. You used to get a credit from FPL by providing additional energy through an inverter back to the grid. Unfortunately, FPL lobbied the state and now they will not pay you for the energy your house produces. The good news is that the Tesla wall battery allows you to store that energy for peak power consumption times.
Tesla's biggest problem is accessiblity (and archaic laws preventing purchasing of cars from non-dealers). At $60k-130k per car, most people are not in the market. The model 3 should improve that by giving a starting price in the $30k's. The range is excellent (300+ miles) and the driving experience is unparalleled.
Digging up dinosaurs and burning them to go to the mall is wasteful and silly. But as long as there's greater demand and it's cheap, people will continue to do it. We have a fusion reactor emitting more energy than we could ever use with a 5 billion year lifespan - how about tapping that energy source more frequently and cut down on our carbon at the same time? Even at a high efficiency in the 18-19% that makes sense.
2 cents
August 1st, 2017 at 11:52 AM ^
It's coming in at $49K and range under 225.
August 1st, 2017 at 12:06 PM ^
Well that's clearly false. The version currently available at $49K has a range of 310 miles.
August 1st, 2017 at 12:40 PM ^
It's $35k - black, no autopilot, 220 mile range.
$5k for autopilot
$1k for other color
$9k for the larger capacity battery - 300+ miles.
You can preorder it today. And that's without incentives.
You might see more Teslas on the road if states didn't have nonsensical franchising laws disallowing direct-to-consumer distribution of automobiles. But, local auto dealers sponsor the little league teams on which the children of state legislators play, so it's unlikely to change any time soon.
August 1st, 2017 at 11:12 AM ^
YA! Lets kill some jobs! Jobs are nonsensical!
August 1st, 2017 at 12:07 PM ^
August 1st, 2017 at 12:26 PM ^
wait, you're advocating a mandate that we must pay someone to provide a useless service just so that person will have a job?
Good plan. Why have any unemployment? We can just mandate more services that add no value! I don't see a problem, do you?
August 1st, 2017 at 12:43 PM ^
Come on, that worked great in Greece! Until Germany stopped lending them money to hire their family members.
August 1st, 2017 at 12:26 PM ^
Great point. We could create even more jobs if we made it illegal for dealers to buy directly from the OEM. Add another layer of middle men. And another and another! We can create all the jobs!
Some jobs really are nonsensical.
I have no idea how long dealerships have existed or the mandates that force them but ya im against killing jobs.
dub dubs dub
The company has been having meetings in MI for owners to keep everyone abreast of what they're doing to counter the stupid dealer laws.The next one is in Grand Rapids. I urge all to contact your representatives/governor and tell them this is an unfair practice. This post doesn't cross the political line does it? The Model S is one of the best cars ever made and it is the only one that is completely American.
The Model S is one of the best cars ever made and it is the only one that is completely American.
What are you basing "completely American" on?
https://www.cars.com/articles/the-carscom-2017-american-made-index-1420…
Telsa opening the Gigafactory will help, but that's still several years away.
https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/07/04/the-most-american-mad…
Stop making stuff up.
Even if you're talking about the new 3 instead S, it's only 95% if all goes well:
http://insideevs.com/tesla-model3-expected-american-made-car-2017/
Given that the Michigan State Legislature has pretty much locked Tesla out of the sales market in Michigan, and that there are only three charging stations in the entire state (none being in the Metro Detroit area), I don't have much of an opinion on Tesla.
That said, I would welcome the chance to test drive a Tesla if the opportunity presented itself.
There's 8 supercharger stations in the lower peninsula, with 6 more on the way by the end of 2017. You can charge up at home at night, then there's no route you can possibly go that won't have a supercharger along the way.
The move towards electric cars like Tesla, combined with using renewable energy to provide that electricity will be a huge step.
August 1st, 2017 at 10:48 AM ^
There are a lot more Supercharger stations in Michigan than three. There are a ton of what they call Destination Chargers too.
August 1st, 2017 at 10:55 AM ^
"then there's no route you can possibly go that won't have a supercharger along the way."
Drive from Canton MI to Canadian Lakes MI. (23N to 96W to 127N to M-20W). Even at the end of this year, the closest one is in Lansing and I can't tell how close it will be to 127. No, I don't want to go out of my way in downtown traffic on Friday evening. It's about 170 miles. No way you can make that on one charge on a summer weekend with AC on and traffic. I make that trip several times a summer.
Yes, it's getting better. But be realistic with your conclusions.
There's actually one currently under construction at 2505 Showtime Dr in Lansing, directly along your route. They're pouring concrete today. Opening by the end of the year.
Wasn't on the map I was checking:
https://www.tesla.com/findus#/bounds/42.76988009999999,-84.493825000000…
Even so, the original comment is hyperbole.
Correct, I apologize. Not every single route. I understand your stance and that it would bother a lot of people to go out of their way and have to wait during the charge. But I would glady go a little out of the way and stop to recharge for free than pay for gas. Would add up a lot over time. I personally am not so busy that saving $20-$30 to charge up for free isn't worth the extra time it takes as opposed to a gas station.
It's getting close for me to be able to get where I want to go in an EV. Just not there yet with infrastructure and battery performance. I understand it works for some people now. But I think there a LOT of people who still have a long ways to go. Cadillac is the furthest north supercharger in all of MI...none in the UP. Traverse City and Grayling will help when they come.
I recently looked at a charging map of Michigan (I was looking at a Volt for my commute to work) and there were TONS of charging spots. Do you mean those are not super charging spots, i.e. would take too long to charge? What's the diff. in time?
August 1st, 2017 at 10:24 AM ^
I'm still steaming over their whole making Steve Guttenberg a star agenda...
August 1st, 2017 at 10:44 AM ^
So many predictions and plot points in the Simpsons have come true, so you can't rule this out. :)