OT : Phil Coke - Not a starter !

Submitted by Brewcityitalian on June 24th, 2011 at 10:21 PM

what a disaster tonight

only 2 idiots who seem to have not figured out yet that coke needs to go back to the pen are Dombrowski and Leyland !

Comments

JBE

June 24th, 2011 at 10:33 PM ^

They really don't have a better option at 5.  And despite his record, Phil has actually been alright.  They do however have a couple options at 2B, and if you ask me Raburn's error was the Tigers undoing tonight.  If that error doesn't happen Phil probably gets out of the inning, and then it's a whole different ballgame.

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yoopergoblue

June 24th, 2011 at 10:34 PM ^

I agree that something needs to be done with Coke.  He is not getting it done as a starter.  Leyland and Dombrowski keep on starting Raburn and I think that is unexcusable.  He is terrible defensively and is hitting .200.  Don Kelly seems to be an improvement at 3rd base over Inge.  He is hitting much better than Inge and isn't much of a drop from Inge defensively.  

bronxblue

June 24th, 2011 at 10:39 PM ^

I think Coke has been decent as a 5th starter - the defense let him down today.  They need to get Raburn out of the lineup and give it to someone who can hit and/or field the position at a major league level.

Mitch Cumstein

June 24th, 2011 at 10:39 PM ^

I personally like him out of the pen, but I'm not sure we have great options for the 5th spot, and he really hasn't been THAT bad.  I mean, we've had a lot worse starting picting out of the 5th spot for the past couple seasons.  I guess we could piece together some call ups for the 5th spot, but really I think Coke is the best option.  I do like him out of the pen though. While tonight we gave up 7, I think our offense has been more of a problem than our pitching.

animals77

June 24th, 2011 at 10:40 PM ^

From the 1-6 record it would be obvious to any normal person that Coke, being a pen guy much of his career, should not have continued to be a starter.  He was a pretty good pen guy, so why change things that are going well?  Instead of signing a free agent 5th starter they opted to bring Coke from the pen to the starter role.  As many great decisions Leyland made early on in his stint at Detroit, he has made 2x more bad ones the past 3 years.  Dombrowski is an on and off guy meaning at times he will go out and make a decision on determination, and at other times it is basically a decision made out of lack of effort.

Mitch Cumstein

June 24th, 2011 at 10:44 PM ^

but he really hasn't pitched that badly.  He has a ~4.3 ERA, which isn't good, but it certainly isn't 1-7.  I think Scherzer has an inflated record as much as Coke has a deflated one.  I don't think we can judge his performance on record alone, especially for a 5th starter.  We need someone to eat innings and give the team a chnace to win, hes done that.

animals77

June 24th, 2011 at 11:25 PM ^

His era is not that bad, but he is a typical Tiger's pitcher in that he gives up base runners in to many innings.  Eventually this takes a wear on your arm and you throw more pitches than normal and by the 4rth or 5th inning you are at about 80 pitches.  It also increases the chances of a big inning from the other team.  He has 67 hits given up and 26 walks in 68 total innings pitched. 

Benoit's signing was not a good one.  Instead of giving that $8 million a year to Benoit, the Tigers should have kept Coke in the bullpen and used that $8 million a year on another proven pitcher, and I do not mean Brad Penny whose stats are 90 innings pitched in with 99 hits given up and 30 walks (4.80 era). 

I personally think Porcello is their worst starting pitcher.  He makes it seem like it is nearly impossible to get a 1-2-3 inning.

umchicago

June 25th, 2011 at 2:36 AM ^

I think you are wrong on every point you make.
1. Coke has been solid as a SP. No run support. Sorry but having less hits than IP is good.
2. Benoit has had a couple bad outings inflating his era. He's a little overpriced but was needed, since perry and zumaya couldn't be counted on.
3. Any team in MLB would love porcello.
4. Penny was a low-risk high-ceiling gamble. ERA under 5 for your 5th starter is not bad anymore(not good either), and he's eating innings.

WMUgoblue

June 24th, 2011 at 10:46 PM ^

May I ask who you would rather see? Do you see Furbush sustaining what he has done out of the bullpen? Is Andy Oliver going to throw strikes? Tonight his defense was his downfall, but I'm happier with Coke then I am with Penny.

Xerxes

June 24th, 2011 at 10:47 PM ^

Well Coke has a better ERA then any of the other starters not named Verlander, but I do think he is better out of the pen. If he's our best #5 option I don't have a problem with that, but I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver get a few more looks starting.

BRCE

June 24th, 2011 at 11:18 PM ^

If Leyland gets questioned about why he keeps Coke in the rotation, he will throw another tantrum.

Anyone hear this guy talk to the media before and after games lately? He is going apeshit at any perceived slight by them, often bullying them after completely harmless questions. He is so insecure it isn't even funny.

Mannix

June 24th, 2011 at 11:32 PM ^

was the lineup Leyland rolled out absent the 3 hole hitter, Boesch. If a team has settled into the 3 hole as Boesch has of late, and he's 25, and coming off a day off, what gives?

Oh, yeah, the vaunted Lefty / Righty matchups. Never mind Boesch has hit LHP's better than RHP's (granted only 166 AB's vs LHP) but putting Inge and Raburn back to back is bad news.

Didn't even PH w/ Boesch tonight.

Good comment on Leyland of late getting rather defensive, too.

krag19

June 25th, 2011 at 12:21 AM ^

I don't quite understand having Magglio anymore. Who knows maybe now his foot/ankle will be better and he can bat. Let me preface this all by saying Magglio has had one hell of a career and is a veteran with a veteran bat and a career average .300 hitter. HOWEVER, as Mclintock posted, last year Boesch hit better against lefties than righties. Now, we've all come down from the Boesch high that was the beginning of the season last year but I like seeing Boesch infront of Cabrera over Magglio. With all that being said, Magglio had a pretty good night tonight and when I say pretty good I mean well above average 2-4 with 2 runs scored an RBI and a walk, I just think theres a different place for him in the lineup other than the 3-spot. Where? I have no idea. We have more outfielders than we know what to do with. 

Now in terms of Phil Coke, I don't see us having any other option for a 5-spot starter right now. But I agree with many people above that he is much more lethal out of the pen in the middle innings. 

For the Tigers to seriously contend for the Central Division they need to clear up who's going to be on: 2nd base (and it better not be Ryan "oops i dropped the ball" Raburn as well as a good 5 starter and move Coke back to the pen. 

 

Tacopants

June 25th, 2011 at 1:45 AM ^

Mind you, I'm not sold on Cabrera being a #4 hitter.  Too often to begin a game we go 1-2-3 and Cabrera leads off, which is terrible.

My ideal lineup would actually be far different than what Leyland throws out there.

1. Jhonny Peralta -SS- .291BA/.351 OBP - gets on base far more than Jackson, strikes out less

2. Maggio Ordonez -RF- .300 career BA- if he can get back to this level.  Not ideal speed, but consistent hitter

3. Miguel Cabrera -1B-I hate for Miggy to lead off innings.

4.VMart -DH - .332/.381 - can probably clean up Cabrera's leftovers, shouldn't be hitting 5th

5. Boesch -LF- .300/.351 - probably a better place for him at this point in his career, less pressure but still wtih lots of opportunities

6. Alex Avila - C- .300/.373 - having a nice season, probably flippable with Boesch.

7. Austin Jackson -CF- .251/.309 - I like speed as much as the next guy, but opponents always key in on him to steal, and he doesn't get on base enough for 20ish steals to overcome 50 points of OBP.

8. Brandon Inge - 3B- The same story for Inge, please get your batting average up and stop striking out as much.

9. Random 2B - Hooray for a .240 hitter at best!

Beezy

June 25th, 2011 at 11:29 AM ^

The pressure of the 5 spot is actually far greater than the pressure of the 3 spot.  When Magglio went down, teams just pitched around Cabrera and went after Boesch.  Boesch continued his post-All-Star slump, and Cabrera lost his protection, killing the Tigers' offense.  He seems to be hitting well in the 3 spot like he was last year, so I see no reason to move him.  I do agree we need to find better table setters.

Mitch Cumstein

June 25th, 2011 at 12:46 PM ^

I think the problem is more with the 1-2 spots than the 3-5.  If we can't find anyone to get on base, I think moving Miggy to 3 seems reasonable, but we should be able to find 2 guys that can bat at lesat around .275 to go 1-2 and allow Miggy to bat in the first inning more often than not.  You'd have to think Jackson will pick it up a little as the season goes forward.  That gives me a little hope, but I think the 2 spot is a real problem.  The way Peralta is batting, I wouldn't mind giving him a shot there.

MGoBlue96

June 25th, 2011 at 9:32 PM ^

has already been picking it up since his slow start. He has been hitting well for the last month or so. I agree that the number 2 spot is the real problem though and wouldn't  be opposed to moving Peralta there since the Tigers aren't getting any speed from that spot anyways.

ckersh74

June 24th, 2011 at 11:39 PM ^

The cent sign does NOT go before the number. A dollar sign does, but not a cent sign.

The Tigers are pretty well screwed as it relates to a #5 starter, outside of potentially Furbush. As for Ryan Raburn, he does not belong on a major league roster at any position. Ryan Raburn is to MLB what Stevie Wonder is to the Indy 500: as useless at tits on a fish.

Two straight games in which we give the starter 6 runs and he can't get out of the 5th.

If A&W is going to give out 25 cent dogs after Raburn goes deep, they're not going to have to worry about losing money. They're going to have to worry about spoiled hot dogs.

animals77

June 25th, 2011 at 12:24 AM ^

Them not losing any money could be a big reason why they did the promotion for Raburn and not Cabrera.  They obviously knew something we did not.  Again:  Another mistake the Tigers have made with one-year-wonder players or players past their primes.  Benoit had one good year last year, so the Tigers sign him to a two year $16 million contract, Renteria a few years ago was past his prime but Tigers signed him to a big contract, Washburn a couple years ago had one half season of productivity and the Tigers traded for him, Raburn bursts for 15 homeruns last year and all of the sudden the Tigers make him an everyday player.  It goes on and on and on with many mistakes that are not justified with results.  What angered more then anything is the Tigers extended Leyland's contract in 2008 when they were something like 13 games below 500, and he demanded an extension in which he got it. 

MGoBlue96

June 25th, 2011 at 3:26 AM ^

signed Renteria to a big contract. They acquired him in a trade, but did not extend him.  Also  Raburn just didn't put up good offensive numbers last year, he had just as good if not better offensive numbers in 2009. And Benoit after the rough start, has been light outs in his last 15 games or so. And to call Washburn a guy who had half of season of productivity is not correct either.  He had some solid  to very good seasons with the Angels prior to going to Seatle. Now obviously the Washburn and Huff deals that season played out very poorly for the Tigers, but at the time they made those trades they were very limited in terms of the players they could acquire due to having very few  prospects to offer to teams and not wanting to add additional payroll. It was either make those trades or do nothing.

animals77

June 25th, 2011 at 4:06 AM ^

Sorry, but that is wrong!  Yes, they acquired him through a trade, but his contract was $12 million yearly and the Tigers bought him out after the 2008 season.  Also, Raburn played a lot last year and put up numbers that got him the everyday playing role this year.  His less then .225 batting average with 6 homeruns, and only has 43 hits in 63 games played does not qualify him to be a starter on any team.  It's not bitching about him as you call it, it is stating the truth.  He is a role-player and not a starter.  "Lights out"?  Are you watching the same games the rest of us are?  15 ER in 28 innings pitched with 31 hits allowed?  That's lights out?  His ERA is 4.76 and all he does is pitch in one inning almost every start.  Here are his last 10 games.

6/22-Pitched in 1 inning giving up 1 hit and 1 walk

6/20 and 6/16-played pretty well

6/13-1 inning 3 hits and 1 walk

6/12-Pitched against 3 batters and gave up a homerun to one of them

6/11-1 inning and 1 hit

6/6-only faced 1 batter

6/5 and 6/1-pitched pretty well

5/31-1 inning gave up 1 hit

I don't mean anything by this, but you sound like a fan who always defends his team and never criticizes them when they do wrong or do not play well.  "It was either make those trades or do nothing"?  No, the Tigers could not just sit around and do nothing, you're right on that, but those trades were not the only options they had.  Adam Dunn was available at that time as well.

animals77

June 25th, 2011 at 4:06 AM ^

Sorry, but that is wrong!  Yes, they acquired him through a trade, but his contract was $12 million yearly and the Tigers bought him out after the 2008 season.  Also, Raburn played a lot last year and put up numbers that got him the everyday playing role this year.  His less then .225 batting average with 6 homeruns, and only has 43 hits in 63 games played does not qualify him to be a starter on any team.  It's not bitching about him as you call it, it is stating the truth.  He is a role-player and not a starter.  "Lights out"?  Are you watching the same games the rest of us are?  15 ER in 28 innings pitched with 31 hits allowed?  That's lights out?  His ERA is 4.76 and all he does is pitch in one inning almost every start.  Here are his last 10 games.

6/22-Pitched in 1 inning giving up 1 hit and 1 walk

6/20 and 6/16-played pretty well

6/13-1 inning 3 hits and 1 walk

6/12-Pitched against 3 batters and gave up a homerun to one of them

6/11-1 inning and 1 hit

6/6-only faced 1 batter

6/5 and 6/1-pitched pretty well

5/31-1 inning gave up 1 hit

I don't mean anything by this, but you sound like a fan who always defends his team and never criticizes them when they do wrong or do not play well.  "It was either make those trades or do nothing"?  No, the Tigers could not just sit around and do nothing, you're right on that, but those trades were not the only options they had.  Adam Dunn was available at that time as well.

MGoBlue96

June 25th, 2011 at 6:27 AM ^

I never said that Raburn didn't put up good numbers last year, my point was that he also put up good offensive numbers in 2009 as well. The Tigers decision to play him everyday was not just based on his numbers last year, they were based on what he did offensively in 2009 as well. Who knows if he is everyday player at this point, but there is nothing wrong with the Tigers still giving him some playing time to see if he can get back to his 2009 and 2010 offensive form. And like I said Raburn has put up signficantly better numbers in the second half of the season the last couple of years than the first half.

I also said that Benoit has been pitching at a high level in his last 15 appearences, not that he has been lights out this season overall. Once again take a minute to actually read my first post. He was horrible in the earlier part of the season no question, but he has a 1.30 or so ERA in his last 15 games. It is too early to judge the signing at this point.

Please enlighten me on the prospects the Tigers were in a position to give up in order to get Dunn that year, when he was one of the hottest comodoties at the deadline. The only reason they were able to get  Huff and Washburn is because Baltimore and Seatle were not asking for alot in return. The Tigers also were looking to acquire players with contracts that were expiring, they did not want to add payroll for any additional years. Dunn still had one year remaining on his contract at the time, if I remember correctly. Dunn was not a realistic possibility, end of story. Huff and Washburn were two of the few  realistic options the Tigers had given how little they could offer teams in return and the Tigers specifically only being interested in guys with expiring contracts.

 Also with  regard  to what I said in my other post about the amount of complaining from other Tigers fans, I never said that there should be no complaints/criticisms, I just feel that the amount is over the top. This team has some holes there is no doubt about that, namely the lack of a true #1 and #2 hitter, the lack of offense from the 3rd base position and some issues in the rotation and pen. I would also be lying if I said I agreed with all of Leyland's game managment decisions. The thing is though  we knew that this team wasn't  a great team going into the season. The expectation was that if they played well they could take advantage of being in a weaker division and contend in the division race. They have met that expectation so far, they are about where people expected record wise and are one game out of 1st.  From the amount of complaining and criticisms directed at  players, you would think they were in last place though.

MGoBlue96

June 25th, 2011 at 9:02 AM ^

simply pointing out they didn't extend Renteria after acquiring him. Part of that trade being so terrible is hinsight  though, Renteria was coming off a very good year and I don't think anybody could have predicted that Jurrjens would turn into the NL ERA leader. I thought Jurrjens had some promise at the time of trade, which is why I didn't like it, but his ceiling certainly didn't seem that high. Hindsight comes into play in alot of MLB trades, did anybody think that both Andrew Miller and Cameron Maybin would turn out to be complete busts when the Tigers traded them?

Tater

June 25th, 2011 at 1:25 AM ^

I was looking forward to sportswriters being able to write "things go better with Coke" in headlines and opening lines of game articles.  

MGoBlue96

June 25th, 2011 at 6:25 AM ^

useless are being extremely short-sighted. Yes his fielding does leave alot to be desired, but he put up very  solid offensive numbers in 2010 and 2009.  He has always been a guy who starts off slow, but than picks it up as the season goes along.  That is why Leyland is still playing him despite his struggles so far, because he has a shown an ability to get hot as the season goes along.

I swear the amount of complaining I see from fellow Tiger fans is ridiculous. This team record wise is right about where people expected and all you guys can do is complain constantly. And a big no to the poster who suggested Jhonny Peralta hit leadoff. Peralta is having a great year so far (probally deserves to be an All Star), but his career numbers indicate a guy who has no bussines hitting leadoff and you can't have a guy with no speed hitting leadoff either.  Once again a small sample size of 62 games does not all of sudden make Peralta a leadoff guy, his career OBP is still lower than Jackson's. Not that Jackson is the prototypical leadoff hitter, but he is th best option the Tigers have and he has really picked it up since his slow start.

 

MGoBender

June 25th, 2011 at 1:35 PM ^

Pena is the same player the Tigers always had.  He can hit HRs and field, but he'll bat .230.

Are you confusing Jeff and Jered Weaver?

Sizemore... small sample size much?

Polanco; Tiger's didn't really "give up" on him.  It is no surprise he's producing with the bat.

Same story with Granderson.  That short porch was going to increase his HRs.  Tiger's sold high and bought low on a player (Jackson) who was a better offensive fit for our ball park.

Top dog 4578

June 25th, 2011 at 7:32 AM ^

Raburn sucks.... Only a horrible manager like Jimmy Smokes would play him this much and rest players that are actually hitting the ball....Same story as last year and the year before and so on.......The tigers should be at least 5 games up on Cleveland but the way leyland always plays for the next game instead of winning the game today with your best players...ABSOLUTE JOKE FIRE LEYLAND ...BEEN SAYING IT FOR 3 YEARS NOW..FIRE LEYLAND...But the only problem is who do you bring in to replace him ????

MGoBlue96

June 25th, 2011 at 9:44 AM ^

that Raburn could have sat for, particurly in games he's played at second base? Ramon Santiago is hitting .217 with virtually no power to speak of, he is the only other option at 2nd base at this point in time. In terms of the games Raburn has played in the outfield, most of those came with Ordonez out, which once again didn't leave the Tigers a whole lot of options besides Raburn for the last outfield spot, particurly with one on the options Kelly being needed at 3rd base.  And like I said Raburn offensively was very solid the last 2 years, you don't give up on a guy before the All-Star break, particurly when you don't have other good options from an offensive standpoint.