OT: OSU band alumni association challenging dismissal of marching band director
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — The new president of Ohio State University and supporters of the school's storied marching band are clashing over the unexpected firing of a band director with deep roots in the organization...
The band's powerful and well-funded alumni association challenges the findings against Waters...
The alumni group has launched its own review and enlisted some of its most iconic figures to try to get Waters reinstated.
They asked football great Archie Griffin, who leads the university's overall alumni association, to help them get a meeting with Drake but Griffin says he supports the university president's actions."
http://www.greenevillesun.com/news/ap_national_news/article_aea28187-3f…
Why, exactly?
The entire piece should have been a single sentence:
"I was mostly okay with all the shit that went down even though the worst of it didn't happen to me, therefore nobody did anything wrong and nobody should have been fired."
She was included in the report because of the nickname she was given, but never interviewed. That being the case, I don't see why anyone would have a problem with her giving her opinion.
a masochist saying that they actually liked and agreed to their beating.
Specifically? I'd say the first 80% of the letter that can be summarized as "I'm not offended by anything that went on. Why should anyone else be?"
I'd say the first 80% is her response to being included in the report without ever having been interviewed.
I tried to read that, but it was so meandering and off the point that I fell asleep around paragraph three. Did it just go on saying that, if the letter-writer wasn't offended, then nothing offensive happened, or did she at some point make an actual argument that wasn't just "you are a big meany"?
The ultimate tl;dr. Good Lord.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:17 AM ^
I know we had the "Save The Big House" people when the stadium renovations and enclosed seating were in development, but I can't think of a parallel to the OSU fan mentality at UM. First with Tressel and now with Waters, highly vocal elements of the fanbase are so committed/loyal/whatever to a leader that they think they can talk the university into reversing a firing decision. The main thrusts (!) of the Waters supporters seem to be 1. but the band is so cool! 2. the bad stuff isn't his fault, why can't the university punish his predecessor (who I believe doesn't work for the university anymore) and 3. the bad stuff wasn't so bad after all, people who are complaining about it are whiners/prudes/pussies.
I was in central Ohio this weekend and out of necessity (all other bars being closed after 10:00pm) my wife and I had a beer apiece at Beano's Buckeye Ballroom in Loudonville. I think I found the end of the earth - a scarlet and gray Hades complete with the requisite "Fuck Michigan" stuff. The list of rules included, among others, the declaration that Ann Arbor is a whore and that "Credit cards are for homos" - it's a cash only affair. It was the St. Woody Cathedral, with dual worship of OSU and the Marine Corps with misogyny/homophobia on the side. It would be easy to picture the Beano's crowd co-mingling with the support Waters crowd.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:30 AM ^
It seems like homophobia and misogyny are so prevelent, people don't even think it exists. Good job making it through that. It would have been difficult for me, I've already been through middle school once.
Yeah, I would've waled right the fuck out of there upon seeing that credit card sign.
Given the research and high-ranked programs as well as my own interactions with Buckeye students, it's mostly a misfortune of location than anything else.
That isn't to say that these outside forces don't influence happenings at the school, mind you.
I've spent 25 years living in Ohio as a Michigan fan or graduate. OSU is a perfectly fine school with a strong academic reputation and a laudable athletic tradition. Columbus itself is an interesting town with a lot of attractive places to live and be. The problem is the wider fanbase and more specifically the old school fans, ranging from alumni to high school dropouts, who operate an OSU cargo cult. By covering themselves from head to toe in scarlet and gray, worshiping at the altar of OSU football, and seizing every opportunity to out-FuckMichigan the next guy, they prove their loyalty to OSU and inflate their self-worth. They strive to equal or surpass all of Woody Hayes' nastiness without latching on to any of his virtues. I've observed a ton of trash talk and general rudeness from OSU fans over the years, almost none of it from actual OSU grads under age 60.
The OSU band situation is complicated and the university president did what he had to do...rid the university of a leader who was tied to embarrassing, outdated, and out-of-control traditions in a student group that is usually a source of pride. The people I described in my first paragraph have joined in the "the stuff that was going on wasn't that bad, so reinstate Waters" pack.
If you substitute the schools' names/colors, it still works, as I'm sure it would with many colleges and fan bases.
"The problem is the wider fanbase and more specifically the old school fans, ranging from alumni to high school dropouts, who operate a Michigan cargo cult. By covering themselves from head to toe in maize and blue, worshiping at the altar of UM football, and seizing every opportunity to out-FuckOhio the next guy, they prove their loyalty to UM and inflate their self-worth."
As you mentioned with the band, it's proven to be an interesting issue. It seemed like an obvious decision at first, but more facts have come out and pushed it into more of a gray area. Nearly everyone listed in the initial report has since said that they were not asked the important questions and that the director had taken significant steps in changing the culture. Similarly, they have all said that he did not refer to band members by their nicknames and did not attend the midnight ramp and other student-lead events. Like many have said, he didn't appear to have done enough to change the culture immediately, and "it's always been that way" is not a defense.
People went pretty loony over the Demar Dorsey situation. Some even phoned specific staff in the admissions office to gripe about it, despite having zero firsthand knowledge of his application status.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:18 AM ^
Where do we think he lands? Rutgers?
August 4th, 2014 at 11:27 AM ^
Maybe Steven A. Smith could defend Waters. Marching band members need to make sure they aren't asking for it after all.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:29 AM ^
"While some of the students may have engaged in such behavior and gave no indication that they objected, the interviews highlighted multiple situations in which students did not welcome this misconduct," investigators wrote in their report. "In a culture so sexualized for so long, students' acquiescence and failure to complain cannot be taken as evidence that the range of this misconduct was welcome."
So, bearing that in mind, is it the end of this particular aspect of band life to which the alums object? I mean, the report released by the University would seem to indicate that Waters himself contributed to this problem in various ways, and if he was indeed tasked initially with trying to put an end to it, why would they want to bring back someone who enabled that culture? I suppose I am having trouble understanding the logical underpinnings of this argument put forth by this challenge.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:32 AM ^
What band were they paying attention to over the years? It's been a pretty poorly-kept secret that the OSUMB hazed like crazy and fostered a macho, male-dominated environment that was almost militaristic. It's been like that for decades. Waters is the fall guy for sure, but he not only participated in it as a student, but also was party to perpetuating it as an adult faculty member.
Which prompts the larger point that his firing should be a wake-up call to the band's membership (and its alumni network, which apparently helped keep the culture going through its membership directory, etc.) that it's time to shape up. This isn't one guy, but a culture perpetuated by hundreds of people. Apparently, the Alumni Association does't agree, which seems even more problematic than anything Waters did, IMO.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:37 AM ^
There was some fairly nasty stuff that was in the Columbus Dispatch a while back. Whether the fired band director was cleaning things up, it's hard to say. Once things became public and the band director was let go, I'd guess it would be hard to bring him back.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:48 AM ^
WTF does this have to do with his post regarding the band director?
So, just to be clear, you're advocating the idea that Michigan should employ bagmen to pay our players under the table.
August 4th, 2014 at 11:50 AM ^
The title is a little confusing. It doesn't sound like this is the full OSU Alumni association, just some band sub-group as far as I can tell.
Thanks for the correction; I changed the title accordingly
has its own investigative branch? Is this in lieu of "self reporting"? I would love to have heard what some of the questions that were asked of the alumni in either a phone or email. lol
August 4th, 2014 at 11:51 AM ^
an amazing place.
Shit like this makes me wonder how anyone can say that they are proud to be an OSU grad without an ounce of sarcasm. Penn State aside, in the last few years, I don't think any other school has had more people stand up in support of several terrible causes.
Does anyone out there faced with a similar task of cleaning up a culture of an institution, getting rid of hazing etc.?
Perhaps I'm naive, but I would think one could make substantial, immediate progress. Ban specific actions that were proven to be objectionable, draw bright lines so all members now what climate is to be acceptable, task minions with enforcement and reporting, and threaten individual punishment (expulsion) and group-wide punishment (no road trips). Costly? Yes. Uncertainty over progress? No.
On a broader point, I don't think the OSU fanbase is special in believing what they want to be true rather than any kind of attempt to look at facts and evidence in a dispassionate manner. Heck, a vast majority of Russians believe Ukraine shot down that Dutch flight. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the only ones who bothered to read the report were the guys who want to be paid to fight it.
Agreed. I think that "OSU is an amazing place" is a curious reaction to the fact that some reactionaries are suing the school for doing the right thing. There are weirdos (some of them past students or employees) who have sued the UofM for bizarre reasons, and I never held that against the university.
I think that the actions of the school's administration speak more for the values of the school than a suit by some disgruntled alums does.
You're telling me that the same school that celebrates a cheater would fight for a harrasser? Balderdash, I say!
Child abuse and sexual hazing are totally different from the freep. Stretching is not in the same category.
OSU guy: "This happens everywhere." "No one was forced to do anything."
Sure