wesq

February 19th, 2013 at 11:15 PM ^

They don't technically, but now the burden of proof falls on the school.  I remember from the practice violations most of the time the charges stick.  I think Michigan was able to successfully appeal one of the violations, speculation was that was in part because Michigan was so forthcoming with their own investigation.  Going to war with the NCAA won't work.

vablue

February 20th, 2013 at 5:57 AM ^

For what Ohio actually got caught doing, they got a pretty good smack.  If they cooperated more might the NCAA have uncovered all the free cars and such, maybe but I doubt it.  Michigan cooperated because they honestly did not think they did anything wrong, who knew we had some extra stretching.

Miami's only room to argue is that the NCAA screwed up, not that they did not have a massive violation of the rules.  Unfortunately for them, this is not a court of law and that mistake does not matter.  It just makes the NCAA look stupid.

That said, Miami probably has nothing to lose by going to war so why not give it a try and bring the NCAA down too.

saveferris

February 20th, 2013 at 8:37 AM ^

OSU really didn't go to war with the NCAA, they were just forthcoming with the violations that they knew they couldn't cover up and then gave a token self-penalty in the hopes that the NCAA wouldn't ding them harder.  All the other stuff that involved Pryor (cash for team equipment, "rental" cars) the NCAA never got to ask him about because suddenly he decided to forego his senior year and enter the supplemental draft.  That was a "decision" that the Ohio administration pushed him into, I'm certain.

Ohio is pretty good at hiding their dirty laundry, but make no mistake, they are very SEC in their approach to managing their athletic programs.  The Cooper years had a terrible psychological impact on that fanbase and they are bound and determined never to let that kind of impotence against Michigan occur ever again, and they've compromised their ethics to ensure that very fact.

ixcuincle

February 19th, 2013 at 10:44 PM ^

Miami is basically claiming that Shapiro is a convicted felon and a bullshit artist. Should be interesting to see how this plays out. 

http://www.hurricanesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28700&ATCLID=…

  • Many of the charges brought forth are based on the word of a man who made a fortune by lying. The NCAA enforcement staff acknowledged to the University that if Nevin Shapiro, a convicted con man, said something more than once, it considered the allegation "corroborated" - an argument which is both ludicrous and counter to legal practice.
  • Most of the sensationalized media accounts of Shapiro's claims are found nowhere in the Notice of Allegations. Despite their efforts over two and a half years, the NCAA enforcement staff could not find evidence of prostitution, expensive cars for players, expensive dinners paid for by boosters, player bounty payments, rampant alcohol and drug use, or the alleged hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash and gifts given to student-athletes, as reported in the media. The fabricated story played well - the facts did not.

Gobgoblue

February 19th, 2013 at 11:09 PM ^

"all out war."

Not the same situation, but not admitting anything worked for Ohio State.

Miami makes a fair amount of $$, be as it may, not as much as OSU, but I feel like one of the factors in these rulings is how important the school is to CFB.  Miami hasn't been a powerhouse for a decade or so; it would not be out of the realm of possibilities that NCAA slams YTM hard for this one.  

It'll set a precedent.  But, of course, NCAA won't follow that!

Perkis-Size Me

February 19th, 2013 at 10:42 PM ^

I'm shocked this whole process has taken this long. But whatever competitiveness the Miami program has built under Golden will get erased pretty quickly. I'm guessing a 2-3 year bowl ban and severe scholarship reductions are on deck.

ChopBlock

February 19th, 2013 at 10:43 PM ^

Seems like quite an about-face from meek cooperation that had been Miami's supposed MO in this investigation. I'm hoping that Miami and the NCAA dedicate themselves to taking the other down, and that both succeed.

LSAClassOf2000

February 19th, 2013 at 11:21 PM ^

As a sidebar to this, the NCAA report on its own conduct outlines specifically what did not end up in the NOA essentially. Page 27 mentions the testimony of Sean Allen, the former equipment manager and an assistant to Nevin Shapiro, and his testimony would have backed up Shapiro's claims that there were in fact mountains of cash, strip clubs and even yachting trips involved in the recruitment of various players. 

In any case, I haven't been able to find the specific text of the NOA yet - I know that the wording was contested for weeks by Miami and the letter was almost delivered last month right before all the investigative impropriety came to the surface. LOIC is still going to get them some sanctions, but it would be interesting to speculate on what they would have gotten if Allen's testimony were still there. 

Supposedly, they are still informing those named. The only person I have seen come up specifically so far is Frank Haith so far, but according SI, there are many more on the list. 

Danwillhor

February 20th, 2013 at 7:10 AM ^

The only difference between Miami and osu is/are the main players being willing to talk. By their own admittance, two people not talking kept osu out of "buddies or not we gotta pimp slap you" punishment. One felt afraid for his life and the other is an osu fan who wouldn't turn on his favorite team (haha). Miami has the guys who threw money, women, tats, drugs, etc around but they are willing to talk for reasons that are obvious but also spite. Ponzi man felt Miami owed him something and was slighted. He'll sleep in his cell with a smile helping the NCAA despite they having ZERO ability to force anyone to speak. Finally, botching it will just make the NCAA come down harder, IMO. The NCAA is like a bipolar teen cramming for a test the night before. They make new rules/powers/shit up as they go, destroy programs for petty crimes and let many off easy for obviously heavy cheating by comparison. USC deserved to get hit but the NCAA admitted their punishment was largely based on assuming an assisstant coach knew with no proof. They invented their own power to punish by assumption. Then, osu's HEAD COACH knew his kids were ineligible, stealing shit, selling shit, feared drug use and drug selling, kids getting $500 handshakes, kids driving sports/luxury cars while also claiming to have sold shit to help Mom pay bills, etc. He knew, lied about it, was caught and everyone knows they have even more skeletons in the closet and they get less than USC because the two zipped lips I mentioned above didn't get the "assumption" treatment USC got despite them both openly saying they had dirt. PSU was a legal matter but they create new rules to nuke them (ok with it but it is a legal matter, not one of athletic/academic advantage or cheating). Botch Miami investigation despite guys on video and in pics talking, players current and ex admitting? No problem. The NCAA's mistake will fuel the punishment handed down out of self spite and an absolute last minute "fuck it" attitude.

Yeoman

February 20th, 2013 at 5:10 PM ^

is the difference between Miami and Columbus. Luther Campbell vs. Eddie Rife. 2 Live Crew vs. Fine Line Tattoos. South Beach vs. the Olentangy.

Whatever their intentions it would be simply impossible for OSU, or pretty much any school for that matter, to compete with the U on this battleground. The particular improper benefits they could offer are of a different class altogether.

Yeoman

February 20th, 2013 at 6:57 PM ^

Lots of places do. But no one else is Miami.

The other big difference between Miami and pretty much anyone else I can think of is that at Ohio (and many other schools) this is just a little (or a lot) extra to put them over the top. It's the difference between NC-caliber and maybe-we-can-win-the-conference caliber.

But at Miami it's the difference beween NC-caliber and why-do-we-bother-fielding-a-team. Miami crashed the party in the 80s without the alumni base or resources the other big football schools all have, and now we know why. Except for a brief prior flirtation with illegalities in the early 50s, football at Miami had been awful for decades and showed no signs of change, to the point that the school was on the verge of dropping the sport altogether.

 

jackw8542

February 20th, 2013 at 8:46 AM ^

is it that the NCAA cannot use whatever information it got from the bankruptcy proceeding?  Is there anything illegal about what the NCAA  did in connection with the bankruptcy proceeding, or is it something in the NCAA charter or rules that precludes it from using reliable information obtained in a judicial proceeding?

thisisme08

February 20th, 2013 at 9:21 AM ^

No lawyer but I believe the questions asked during the bankruptcy deposition would not have been asked in a normal deposition aka the person was essentially forced to talk about a case they were not there to discuss but because of perjury, they answered the questions hence the NCAA coming into information they had no business getting. 

GoBluePhil

February 20th, 2013 at 10:57 AM ^

The NCAA is not investigating criminal activity and they do not fall under the rules of criminal law. If anything their rules are more like a civil court and the is vast leniency in the civil process. Hear say is allowed along with innuendo. I do not believe that all the evidence against Miami is or should be tainted even if it was ill gotten evidence. Different rules for NCAA vs courts of law. Don't get the two confused. Also consider that most penalties are agreed upon by the school committing violations. Thus an agreement takes precedent over everything. Somewhat like a plea bargain. When schools enter into the agreement they give up most rights of rebuttal.

Section 1

February 20th, 2013 at 12:41 PM ^

No, I think the replies above are missing the point.

If people could get over their hate for the NCAA, and moderate their dislike for Miami, I think there is an interesting, and very complicated story that is very much worth talking about.

The NCAA has absolute power, to request statements from the personnel within member institutions.  But the NCAA has no power to subpoena witnesses.  I hope that clears up some of the misconceptions above.

And Hearsay rules apply in civil lawsuits just as they do in criminal cases.  So that was another misconception cleared up.  But NCAA investigations are not legal cases.  True, NCAA investigations often glom onto criminal and civil cases.  There was an element of that in OSU's tatgate (the federal criminal investigation of Ed Rife) and in the Michigan basketball scandal (the federal criminal investigation of Ed Martin and the perjury investigation of Chris Webber).

As far as I can tell, the main reason that the NCAA has distanced itself from the use of testimony and evidence from Nevin Shaprio's bankruptcy proceedings is that there was -- by the NCAA's own admission and standards -- an improper contact with, and payment of, Nevin Shapiro's personal counsel on the part of NCAA investigative counsel.  I'm still trying to understand what was so inherently bad in that instance, but you get the flavor from this Miami Herald story:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/02/19/3241012_p2/external-review-some-ncaa-staffers.html 

The gist being that professional scumball Nevin Shaprio hired attorney Elena Perez, and Ms. Perez was thereafter involved in the interviews/procurement of testimony from a bunch of interview subjects, 12 of which were ultimately excluded from the NCAA's investigative process when it became known that Ms. Perez was billing the NCAA for some of her services and it appeared that the NCAA was using Ms. Perez (while Nevin Shapiro's counsel) to advance its own investigation.

Speaking only for myself, and not being one of the investigators of course, it seems to me as though the NCAA's malfeasance goes only to a level of casualness/outsourcing/laziness in their investigation.  People can call it a breach of investigatory ethics if they wish; I might not argue the point on its technical merits.  But I hope people can understand how mild was any screwup on the part of the NCAA in the great scheme of things.  I really think that Miami is trying to extricate itself by making the NCAA look bad.  It's not flying with me; I wonder if others feel as I do. 

Now, the reason that I asked above if anybody knew who was running the defense of Miami with regard to the NCAA investigation is that it seems to be wholly unlike both the Michigan and Ohio State football investigations of recent years.  The preeminent NCAA lawyer Gene Marsh was involved in both cases.  Marsh was Michigan's counsel in the Stretchgate case; and he was Tressel's personal counsel in Tatgate case.  And in both of those cases, the investigations were beyond reproach and were resolved mostly cooperatively.  (In the Michigan case, Michigan opposed, and prevailed, any personal charge against Rich Rodriguez.  In the OSU case, the school proposed a self-imposed sanction that did not include a bowl ban and lost on that proposal wherein one was imposed.)

Yes, Miami seems to be taking an approach that Gene Marsh would not likely associate himself with.  It's a messy, confused, complicated story, no matter what.

Soulfire21

February 20th, 2013 at 10:59 AM ^

I hope Miami issues the NCAA a notice of allegations, including the dreaded lack of institutional control, because they botched this.  Well, everything, it seems.

French West Indian

February 20th, 2013 at 12:36 PM ^

....what if the NCAA did dissolve and schools could just literally do whatever they wanted?  Might a wild west style free market be better for college sports?  I don't know but I suppose it would be more honest if schools like Miami could just say, "Yeah, we hook the kids up.  Deal with it."

Yeoman

February 20th, 2013 at 5:09 PM ^

Schools already can do whatever they want. (Well, within limits. The prostitutes and drugs might have run afoul of various state and federal laws.)

No one forces schools to belong to the NCAA. If any group wants to split off and play wild-west style free-market football, they're welcome to it. The NCAA exists because the schools desire it; if for some reason it dissolved they would probably create a substitute.