OT: Most difficult positions in Detroit Sports
Growing up in the 90s outside Ann Arbor, I heard a lot on the radio about how the two most difficult positions in Detroit sports were Lions QB and Red Wings goalie. In retrospect, this may have been more about the mediocre results from both at the time (the Peete/Kramer/Ware triumvirate to Scott Mitchell to Charlie Batch and Tim Cheveldae/young Chris Osgood era) than the actual pressure exerted on the position.
Now, from 30,000 feet it looks like these positions don't seem to get that same level of pressure. Matthew Stafford, no matter where one ranks him in the pantheon of current NFL quarterbacks, certainly seems to have stabilized the position here in a fashion not seen since Layne. And given where the Red Wings are as a franchise, they're not a goalie away.
I'm wondering what you think those positions are now.
The only position that seems to jump out is Tigers bullpen, though not necessarily closer. Though he blows up occasionally, KRod is usually good enough to get the job done. This is less true of the set up guys. Bruce Rondon himself, and the front office's belief in him dating back to 2012, may have actively hindered multiple Tiger seasons.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:35 PM ^
Red Wings goalie and it's not even close IMO. The pressure is enormous and the expectations are always sky-high. Hell some claimed it KILLED Terry Sawchuck as he suffered most of his post-Wings life (short as it was) from depression and alcoholism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Sawchuk
April 12th, 2017 at 12:43 PM ^
In sports generally, I'd typically say QB for all the reasons everyone talks about.
However, as mGrowOld points out, Wings' goalies get more stick than anyone.
Hell, Osgood retired in 2011 and still gets shit yelled at him while doing pre/post game work at the Joe by Wings fans.
What are they upset with him about? How many Stanley Cups was he supposed to win?
But I know he still gets some crap because the FSD guys sort of laugh about it occasionally.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:54 PM ^
It seems like the Wings goalie gets a ton of shit. You don't even have to go as far back as Ozzie. Jimmy Howard was getting shit for pretty much his entire tenure. You can also mention Vernon, Ozzie, CuJo and even Hasek to an extent. That last year they won the cup, Hasek just didn't have it and he was replaced by Ozzie after like a game or two in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, Lions QB gets his fair share too. Just a two years ago there were actual, real living people, calling into 97.1 during the preseason actually saying they wanted Kellen Moore to start over Stafford. You can count that towards both, that being a tough position in Detroit sports and just dumbass fans.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:37 PM ^
piledriver or reverse cowgirl
April 12th, 2017 at 12:38 PM ^
is probably the most important basketball-related one. There's an argument for C too but I think most would agree the pressure on the PG is greater.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:39 PM ^
April 12th, 2017 at 12:40 PM ^
A top 10 draft pick who plays tight end who everyone abhors for some reason, mostly because of the players he was drafted over by a former GM who doesn't work for the team anymore.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:47 PM ^
April 12th, 2017 at 12:57 PM ^
Given that they'd already declined to exercise Nick Fairley's fifth year and the likelihood of Suh leaving, not taking Donald was just about hoping you could miraculously re-sign one or both and not taking into account the world as it actually was. That they had to compound it by giving away draft assets for Ngata just made it worse.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:59 PM ^
any time he acutally does make a reception, he acts like he just won the fucking super bowl
I only watch the Lions casually, but it looked to me that any time the Lions were moving the ball for the entire second half of last season was because Ebron was catching it. I am not saying the guy is All-World but I saw a lot of guys on the field doing far less to win games last year than Ebron.
Ebron 2016:
61 Catches (85 targets), 711 yards, 1 TD, 7 drops
Marvin Jones 2016:
55 Catches (103 targets), 930 yards, 4 TD, 6 drops
Who do fans complain about more? Ebron isn't perfect but the guy gets an amazing amount of hate for having decent stats
I dislike him because I always think "This is the year he's the key redzone target", ya know, being like 8 feet tall and all, and then he ends up with one major crap stat - 1 TD.
I am actually surprised at his catches and targets but that TD number is a fantasy killer.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:47 PM ^
Someone call Tim Cheveldae to get his take on the pressure of being the Wings goalie.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:48 PM ^
It's any "winning" position
April 12th, 2017 at 12:50 PM ^
But I think Michigan QB is heading back to how tough it was in the Moeller/Lloyd days. Considering how much highly rated competition there is for the job, it has to be a extremely mentally gruelling. At least Stafford knows that he is pretty much indespenseable.
Much respect to Wilton for beating out the competition as a 4* Hoke recruit.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:58 PM ^
If you were going to expand beyond "Detroit sports" to "Michigan sports" in general, a very good case could be made for Michigan QB as the most difficult position in the state. Who is the last Michigan QB that had broad consensus fan support? Since 1997 season, I'd argue there are only two years in which the QB didn't face significant fan dissent, Drew Henson's year as the starter and Henne's junior year. Maybe Navarre's senior year but there was still a lot of fan grumbling.
Think of the various lines of significant fanbase dissent about the QB...
Henson > Brady
Navarre's entire career (perhaps other than 2003)
Henne had people wanting Gutierrez to get healthy his 1st and 2nd years and people cheering when he got hurt and Mallett came in his senior year.
2008. Enough said.
Forcier vs Denard.
Denard's not a real QB.
Shane > Gardner
O'Korn/Shane > Rudock
O'Korn > Speight.
was outstanding in 2006. I remember that people were excited to see what Mallett could do in 07 but that was because we were 0-2, not because Henne was the problem.
one of the most heralded recruits Michigan had gotten up to that time
When Henne's arm was falling off in '07, I was a big fan of playing anyone with a pulse at QB. If Mallett had been remotely competent we would have stolen The Game. OSU knew he couldn't throw and Hart was too banged up to beat a stacked line.
edit: holy mfing shit, does this ^^ sound familiar?
Brian in his UFR discussion of Mallett in the Wisconsin game the week before The Game in 2007 (see here).
Another choice quote: "I am not suggesting that Mallett is destined for failure. It's just that at the moment he sucks real bad. He's going to have to work his ass off to hold off Steven Threet, and I say that having never seen Threet do anything at all."
After the Indiana game I don't take people who claim O'Korn is better than Speight seriously. And this is coming from a guy who didn't think Speight would start.
The grumbling this year is going to be Peters > Speight but it probably isn't true.
I don't recall that much of a debate regarding Forcier/Denard. In their freshman year, Forcier was definitely more ready to play, and then in their sophomore year Denard was clearly too good to keep on the bench.
April 12th, 2017 at 12:59 PM ^
In Detroit, I have to believe the pressure is highest on the starting goaltender for the Red Wings. It's all about relative expectations
Hard to really put pressure on a Lions QB when the Lions haven't won anything in over half a century. Hell, that's a franchise that raises banners just for playoff appearances. I can't ever imagine the Red Wings stooping to that level. Sure, there is pressure on Stafford, but until the Lions actually get somewhere in the postseason, I don't think think there's much of it. There's never been an expectation for the Lions to be any good.
As for the Red Wings, that's a whole other ballgame. They're the Green Bay Packers, New York Yankees, and LA Lakers of the NHL. The expectation of competing for Stanley Cups every year will always be there because historically, that's what the Red Wings have done. Aside from this season, they are contenders year in and out. Fans expect them to be winners, so with that, there's going to be an insanely high level of expectations. Especially on the one guy that your season pretty much lives and dies by. The goaltender with "the hot hand" could be the difference between just making the playoffs, and winning the whole damn thing.
Not even close: Wings Goalie
Followed by Michigan QB.
No question.
Red Wings goalie. With how great those teams were, there's so much pressure on the goalie to keep the team in the game. Look back at all the talent the Wings have had in the last 30 years.
definitely has an argument. It's been a career death sentence for several, previously very good players. Also, I didn't know about the Sawchuk backstory. Sad!
Historically? Red Wings goalie.
Currently? Tigers bullpen. Tigers lost their golden opportunity for a WS championship due to bullpen implosions. I'll give a second place nod to Lions QB due to lack of championships, but Stafford has put a finger in that leaking dam. I legit think Stafford can win a Super Bowl. It's the other components that need fixing.
MSU's AD would be a pretty shitty spot to be in...
Followed by MSU's head football coach, MSU's Band director, etc....
Tigers closer by a mile. Between Guitar Hero injuries and guys who magically lose the ability to throw strikes to big-name, big-contract closers who suck the second they put on the Old English D... The damn position is a cursed pressure cooker.
The Curse of Willie Hernandez. It didn't help that, as I recall anecdotally, Tiger fans were dicks to him starting in '85 when he began to lose his Cy Young form.
began when he insisted on being called "Guillermo".
offense and defense for the Lions.
Huh? You can be aboslutely abysmal and still get paid in our pen.
I will agree with everyone else - the most piling on seems to be at the expense of whoever is in goal for the Red Wings on a given night. No matter how good they are doing, it never seems to be quite enough and the discussion seems to devolve into a bitchfest about the things they DIDN'T do, even in a win.
Second place has to be Lions QB for me - it seems like the past three decades have mostly been a story of a decent to good QB with insufficient talent around him or an outright disaster or Scott Mitchell's 1995 campaign that died prematurely in the wild card game against the Eagles.
Creeping up the list is anyone coming out of the bullpen for the Tigers.
GM is a position, right? I'd say all of the GM positions get a lot of scrutiny.
I understand the argument (and the history) behind the Red Wings goalie but it seems like they split time around 60/40 these days (adjusted for games missed due to injury). No more than 75/25....except possibly in playoffs. It's hard to blame one goalie in particular. If one of them is not winning, the other one will play more. If neither is winning, the blame gets split (and diluted).
My real vote would probably go to:
1. Tigers Bullpen - It's hard to lump all of these guys together.....but it seems appropriate.
2. Lions QB
3. Michigan QB
4. Wings Goalie
Lions' head coach has to be the hardest. The Ziggy is not given as freely as at franchises with maybe higher expectations, but all of them have gotten Ziggy since basically the 1970s. And former Lions coaches do not, by and large, go on to attractive opportunities. It's where careers go to die.
Tigers' closer is second to me. It has been a trail of tears since Willie Hernandez. You can blame the closer for the 2006 World Series, and many playoff meltdowns since. That is all that has stood between the Tigers and one, possibly two or three, World Series titles.
After that, it's a drop. Red Wings goalies have taken a ton of flak. That is true. But there have been Cups! Most of that, in my view, is Sparty-level grousing (often, by Sparties). The Wings' most heartbreaking moments have not been goalie-related.
Tigers manager. You idiots drove off a hall of famer after he went to 2 World Series! lol.
Runner-up could be any owner or GM of anything. Detroit idiots LOVE to think they are smarter than everyone. Then they call the local radio station to prove otherwise. It's fantastic.
I'd Tigers closer is next.
I think Detroit fans have been very lenient with Lion's QBs, seeing as in the 10 years or so preceeding Stafford, we've have the worst collection of starters that professional football has ever seen in such a long span. Yet for the most part, our indifference and acceptance of "Same Old Lions" gave those guys more breathing room than most places would have given them.
Detroit Tiger's closer however...you will get your head ripped off in Detroit if you can close to our satisfaction. That I would say is the only position that can compete with Red Wings goalie for toughest position in Detroit.
Success eludes all who try.
A Lions fan /thread